Deflate-gate II thread - let's go to court!

Let’s not get into the debate of if he is guilty, or isn’t guilty, or any commentary on the fairness of the punishment, etc. There are a couple of threads about that already.

I want to focus on the potential court case, and what direction it could go. Based on what I’ve read, I think I can sum up the two sides quickly.

Brady supporters want this to go to court, because they think the NFL will lose, and Brady will not serve any suspension at all.

NFL supporters say this isn’t a matter for the courts, and the case would get thrown out. The dealing with a player’s punishment (and the process) is something that was collectively bargained, and the NFL has done nothing wrong procedurally.

Assuming no deal is made, and Brady’s legal team sues the NFL, what exactly can happen here? Let’s also assume it doesn’t get thrown out, and will be heard by a judge.

IANAL, obviously, so when I read something on-line, I have no idea if it has any basis in fact. Some of the questions I have:

  1. if Brady goes to court, will the NFL have subpoena power and be able to get access to Brady’s phone?

  2. if the answer to phone access is no, can they subpoena the wireless carrier and get access to any text messages they may have recorded?

  3. can someone explain the text message issue a bit more clearly to me? I don’t understand why they could not see Brady’s replies to the two employees. On my phone (an iPhone), you can see both sides of any conversation I have not completely deleted. There isn’t just a “sent messages” folder (at least, not that I am aware of, but maybe there is). On my phone, if there is a conversation between me and whoever, the entire thing is there… I don’t know how far it goes back, I’ve never looked.

  4. if the NFL is found “guilty” of not giving Brady proper “due process”, so what? That may remove the monetary fine, but can’t the NFL keep any player out of any game if it deems that player has violated league rules?

  5. I’ve read that the courts can place an injunction on the suspension, forcing the league to let him play until a ruling is reached. Assuming that is true, let’s say Brady starts the season under center. 2 scenarios then (again, assuming no deal and it plays out)

a) The court rules against Brady. Can the league then re-visit Brady’s punishment and give him more games if it wants? If the league can reduce the penalty, can it increase it? Also, if this lasts most of the season, can the NFL make him sit immediately, regardless of where the season happens to be (end of season, playoffs)?

b) the league rules for Brady. Does the league have the ability to say "ok, we will re-visit this and give him “due process”, whatever that means, or does the whole thing get flushed away forever?

The Patriot organization, it seems, has accepted their part of the punishment. They pay the fine, and they lose two draft picks. If that could also change, I’d like to hear how and why.

I really don’t want to rehash the debate here. I want to focus on what both sides could be risking if this goes to court. (And please, let’s not focus on the NFL’s credibility or Brady’s legacy, or anything like that. Everyone has made up their mind about Brady at this point, and it doesn’t matter IMO what the court ultimately decides.)

Wow! An entire day and not one reply.

I hope this means everyone is just tired of the issue.
Or no one knows the answers to the potential legal side of this.

Either way, I’m ok with it.

I didn’t see it, sorry.

The players are trying to get the courts to negate the part of the CBA that says the Commissioner has the right to impose punishments in the best interests of the game. Chances are the courts are going to toss the case because the players have no standing, they agreed to it. I just don’t see any way around that for the players.

I also don’t see any way that Brady gets suspended and the courts overturn it. How could they? Would that negate any suspension administered by Goodell? What recourse would they have for future suspensions?

Should any of this actually go to court with a ruling in favor of the players the owners will lock the players out the day after the decision is made. The CBA will essentially be voided.

The next season would be over before it would reach trial so unlikely really.

Wells already had the texts between Brady and Jastremski as Jastremski gave up his phone to Wells. There were no texts between Brady and McNally. Wells wanted Brady’s phone to look at any other texts and Emails to see if Brady might have had discussions with any one else about this situation. Wells told Brady that they would take precautions to make sure nothing would end up being leaked. Shockingly, this did not change Brady’s mind. Wells has stated that the refusal to turn over his phone made Brady seem uncooperative.

I agree with most of what you say. I simply don’t understand, based on the limited amount if information I have, how this could even be heard by a court. I can understand the NFLPA trying to take it to court, but getting it heard is another matter.

As long as the NFL has handled this in accordance to the CBA, the players are kind of stuck until the CBA is up for re-negotiation again.
I did not think about what would happen if the courts would rule in favor of Brady. That could essentially void the CBA, and a lockout would be a real possibility. I would assume there would be an appeal by the NFL, but I doubt the NFL would want ti drag this out for years.

I wonder if the owners would go the lockout route? If the CBA could be voided like this, why would ANY CBA not have the same potential to be voided when the NFLPA sues because they don’t like something they negotiated?

Interesting stuff.

If Brady is not successful in court, whatever Goodell decides would just stand. For the appeal, Goodell can decrease the penalty, but is not allowed to increase it. If Brady is successful in court, theoretically he could get a bigger penalty when his case is redone and a new decision is made, but that seems extremely unlikely.

I don’t have any kind of legal background, so I don’t have much to offer. What exactly are the terms in the CBA that govern player suspensions? The only argument I can see Brady having is if there is a provision that wrongdoing must meet a certain burden of proof in order for action to be taken, but if the commissioner has carte blanche to suspend for any reason he sees fit, I don’t see how there is anything the courts can do.

I don’t have any legal background either. Everything I’m offering here is just what I’ve read. As for what Brady could argue in court, it would be “Law of shop” which basically is that Goodell has to be consistent and fair. Goodell would have to defend penalizing the Patriots/Brady $1,000,000 , draft picks and a 4 game suspension for a violation which calls for a $25,000 fine. If Goodell wants to say that the penalties were for being uncooperative, he would have to convince a judge that Brady’s refusal to turn over his personal made him uncooperative. Wells and Goodell have both said that Brady was cooperative in every other aspect , answering every question that was asked.

I don’t think Brady can bring the fine and draft picks into it; those penalties weren’t levied toward him. I would think only the suspension would be on the table.

A Collective Bargaining Agreement is just another contract/labour law case. A Court can easily find that a person exceeded their authority under that or exersized discretion in an arbitrary or capricious manner. Not saying that is what they will decide here, just that Courts do have the power to grant relief.

The fine and draft picks are definitely off the table, but Brady could still bring them up when arguing the penalties were excessive.

He could bring them up, but would it be valid?

The fine and draft picks did not impact Tom Brady or the NFLPA. It hit the organization and the owner.

Brady is being punished because of his behavior, tied to the notion of “game integrity.”

It’s very possible that a judge would think the same way. But Brady will probably try to include it and maybe the judge will look at it as excessive compared to the $25,000 fine that teams are subject to for tampering with footballs.

What behavior would that be? Wells has already admitted Brady answered all questions asked of him. Not turning over his personal cell phone? With the league’s record of leaks? Also let’s not forget, when the NFL hired Robert Mueller to investigate the NFL’s actions in the Ray Rice incident, league communication devices were asked for, but personal cell phones were specifically excluded according to the report The NFL is going to have a tough time convincing a neutral party that Brady’s refusal to turn over his personal cell phone warrants a suspension of any length

I’m not going to get into an argument over what Brady did or didn’t do. That is for another thread.

If you don’t have any idea why Brady got a 4 game suspension, there is ample information out there.

Let’s keep this focused on the potential trial and fallout from that.

As I noted earlier there almost certainly not be any trial until next year at the earliest. The courts wont rush this case just because its the NFL. The best Brady can hope for this season is to injoin the NFL from suspending him pending a trial,

StinkFish , I wasn’t trying to get into a debate. I have zero interest in arguing with anyone on this message board about Brady’s guilt or innocence. I was just trying to point out the evidence (or lack of) vs. the penalty as a reason for a judge to hear this case or tell Brady he’s out of luck.

If Goodell reduces the suspension down to one game on appeal, then Brady still goes to court, I can see the judge not wanting to get involved. 4 games? ¼ of the season? That could be a different story. The more egregious the penalty, the better chance Brady has to be heard.

If Brady is successful in getting a stay, then loses his case, he sits out the next game, whether it be regular season or playoffs. Getting a stay should be relatively easy. If the Patriots request a rush arguing that if Brady is unsuccessful, it would be better to sit out earlier games than ones later on in the season or even the playoffs, the court could easily deny that request

Fair enough.

I am not sure I see why it would matter how long the suspension is.

You may have a point, but from a legal POV, I would think the length of suspension is immaterial. Being suspended for 1 game or 8, one of the talking points of the Brady camp is that this will impact his legacy.

If a court would hear the case based on length of suspension, that would set a very interesting precedent. All the NFL would have to do to stay out of court is keep a suspension under a certain number of games.
I would have loved to have been in that meeting at the NFL offices to not only hear the arguments from Brady’s side, but to also see everyone’s faces/reactions to everything. I think the transcript of the meeting has been released, but that only tells part of the story.

This is all about “Shop of Law”. The courts are not going to decide Brady’s guilt or innocence, it will decide if he was treated fairly, (It they decide to hear this case, and that’s a big IF), just like the Rice and Peterson cases. Neither one of the them was close to innocent, but it was ruled they were not being treated fairly. So yes, there is a BIG difference being suspended for 1 vs. 8 games.

So if the courts agree to hear it, Brady’s team can introduce any and all previous rulings on any and all previous league rulings and ask the court to decide if it was “fair”?

I can see how length of suspension would come into play then, but it would be interesting how the court would/could equate domestic violence v. drug use vs. this, and what is fair.

I don’t think the courts would want to be the final arbitor in setting penalty limits, but that doesn’t mean they won’t get involved.