Deliberate (and deliberately offensive) racism should be moderatable. It is Being a Jerk

True. That second part meant he knew damn well he was breaking the rules, and unlike my hypothetical there wasn’t even an attempt to equivocate.

Maybe just put me down as disappointed in the result here.

That seems a big “if” though. At this point I don’t think it’s working like it should. If you could get all the mods on the same page it could work. Getting them to agree on what crosses the racist line seems to be the hard part. And I don’t think the mods are racist, just judging things on their own life experiences. But the white experience in the US is not the same as the minority experience. And, as far as I know, all our mods are white right now. Hence the blurry racist/not racist line.

This was one of the worst parts about allowing “debate” on racism. It didn’t matter how many times their cites were shown to be wrong or made up, bam!, the next day they were used again in a different thread. And it went on for years and always brought in posters that thought they could argue against the bullshit and enlighten the racist. Little tip, you can’t.

They could, but after all these years I really don’t expect it to happen. The only time I can think of that mods did something on their own recently was when Miller changed all Pit threads of posters to say I Pit So-and-so instead of a bunch of swearing or insults. But that wasn’t changing an actual rule, it was a byproduct of Discourse tagging peoples posts with their Pit thread.

My problem with the Jerk rule is that it is almost never used, at least in the forums I read. Case in point is the subject of this thread. Absolutely everyone understood what Cartooniversewrote was racist. A black director meant there would be no punishment for a black actor just because they were both black. This was the mod reply, with my bolding. How in the world does an outright racist post in Cafe Society not cross the jerk line?

This post has been reviewed, while it does appear racist, it does not violate the hate speech or any other rule we can find. Please do not flag it.

But it was blatant. Especially for Cafe Society. I have zero experience with the Oscars and couldn’t name a tv director to save my life, and I knew exactly what I was going to find when I looked up the director.

Please see my later comment.

Yes. Very, very blatant. So blatant that the poster made a cute little crack about maybe getting banned. It should have been modded. It’s a disgrace that it wasn’t.

Agreeing. It should have been modded both for the racism and for the clearly stated attempt to circumvent rules.

Sorry 'bout that. :grinning:

I’m really curious what the argument was for not drawing a don’t be a jerk hit. For me, Cafe is fun and games, some tv talk, some movie talk. To have a post like that to turn up there was a bit jarring, but the weird modding made it really stand out.

Totally agree. It’s not like I think he should be banned over this, but a warning of some kind was in order. This was one of those nip it in the bud situations and it all fell apart.

It’s cool, you had a mega post and I’m sure my reply got slipped in while you were composing it.

I just didn’t want to repeat what I said (which was in full agreement with you). :slight_smile:

Hi. I’m back to bump this thread to see if we can get more of a resolution. Surely all of the mods can agree that the most blatant racism or racism designed to be offensive should be modded, even if they don’t necessarily agree where the line is.


That said, I also saw a recent moderation that I think illustrates the point I was trying to make about there not needing to be a specific rule for every type of moderation. There was an Elon Musk thread that got closed, even though people involved weren’t really violating any bright line rules.

That’s what I’m saying about racism. I don’t think you need to go look for a bright line rule if you’re going to be giving a Mod Note or closing a thread or other such actions. I don’t think racism is a special case where you need to be more careful.

That’s what I mean by saying it seems like What_Exit found a single rule, and that was enough to, instead of moderating (doing anything to try and stop it), telling everyone else that nothing could be done and they should stop reporting it.

This isn’t an attack on WE, or accusing him of bad motives. It’s an argument for why I think his logic was faulty in this. And I would like to see if others agree or disagree.

My argument is that this was such blatant being a jerk (and trying to do a runaround on the rules) that you didn’t need to look for rules specific to racism to moderate it. Racism is also a subset of being a jerk, and thus should be moderated.

I’m all for a specific rule being added, as it would make these things much more clear and easier to decide where the line is. Plus it would allow Warnings instead of just Mod Notes or thread closings.

But I do think the correct course of action would have at least been to make a mod note telling the poster that, if they really believe saying something would be against the rules, they shouldn’t bring it up at all.

I’ve just assumed, since enough time has passed, that the answer to this question:

is a resounding “Yes”.

Yes, the mods (excluding W_E and pg) are just fine with racists being given free reign to post what they like (suitably politely worded, of course)

It’s been a week since @What_Exit posted this. Any news?

@engineer_comp_geek , I’m assuming since this is the thread in question, there won’t be a sudden sarcasm-laden closure of this one just because it’s me reviving it?

For the record, I as the OP agree with this revival. And I also share the concern this thread will get closed without any resolution, and the inherent implication of such an act. Not that I am not also concerned the thread will just be ignored.

This is a legitimate problem. If a mod (or mods) didn’t feel they could moderate this, then that is an issue we need to fix. We have rules for trans threads that would stop this. We have de facto rules for misogyny and homophobia. So why not racism?

Actually, there should be a message from Ed coming shortly, Ed hosted a Zoom meeting last night with most of the Mods to discuss the problem.


So while much time was taken, the subject was not dropped. But the Zoom meeting scheduling did add another delay.



  • There will also be a fairly minor procedure change concerning thread moves that mods will be following. We will no longer be moving stray rants into the pit directly. We will close them and let the OP know that if they want the thread reopened, we’ll move it to the pit and reopen it.

This is only for when the OP itself is a rant, if the thread gets hijacked into a rant, by anyone but the OP, we’ll tell those users to desist.

  • Threads in FQ that have moved on to more of a debate but don’t have a fully formed debate in the OP will not be moved into GD but to IMHO.

As this part is mostly just Mod stuff, I’m not sure if Ed will be covering this.

Thanks for the update.

Thank you for the bump, and thank you for the abbreviated update.

This seems like a really good policy. Many times I’ve seen someone post a rant that gets moved to the Pit and the OP is upset, but the genie is out of the bottle. This change still confines rants to the Pit where they belong, but gives the thread creator a choice.

Miller’s suggestion and when he brought it up, I know I thought it through and realized how much sense it made. And I’m probably the new mod that did it the most.

Yeah, I like this one.

Fyi

Should Ed’s thread be locked? Do we discuss the rule change here or there?

~Max

The thread was purposely not locked to allow questions and discussion. We’ll lock it once it appears all substantive issues have been addressed.