Democratic or Democrat?

[Alan_Smithee]

I don’t think anyone has claimed that “democrat” can’t be used as a noun modifier. What has been claimed is that it is rude, and that it is inaccurate (or ungrammatical) in the cases in which it is commonly used.

That it is rude is not, I think, in dispute. Let me explain why it is, in certain instances ungrammatical.

“Democrat” is not the noun form of “Democratic” any more than “congressman” is the noun form of “congressional”. The noun form of “Democratic” is “Democratic Party,” just as the noun form of “congressional” is “Congress.” That is to say, “Democratic” and “Democratic Party” both refer to an organization. “Democrat,” like “congressman” refers to an individual or individuals.

“Democrat majority,” “Democrat legislation,” “Democrat logo,” and “Democrat candidate” do not refer to things that are of or related to individuals who are Democrats, but to things that are of or related to the Democratic Party. To see the difference, consider the analogous phrases, “congressman majority,” “congressman legislation,” “congressman logo,” or “congressman candidate” compared to “congressional majority,” congressional legislation," “congressional logo,” or “congressional candidate.”

But that is not to say that “Democrat” and “congressman” can never be used attributively. If someone sounds like Ted Kennedy or John Kerry, it would be perfectly correct to say (facetiously, of course) that they are speaking with a Democrat accent. (And incorrect to say “Democratic accent,” since you are facetiously supposing the accent is typical of Democrats, not of the Democratic Party.) Also, if a certain style of hat or tie became popular among Democrats, you could say somebody was wearing a Democrat hat or a Democrat tie.

Likewise, you could accuse someone who used lots of whereases and be-it-resolveds of talking in congressman speak, and someone who wore a suit and tie with a flag lapel pin and a campaign button of wearing a congressman uniform.

[Polycarp]

@harveyc

Maybe to help this argument along, we can play a “parlor game.”

What other words are there in modern English, besides “democrat”, that can’t be used as a noun modifier – with an emphasis on those nouns that have corresponding adjectives?

Certainly not truck route, golf ball, ski lodge, Iraq War, peace talks, farm worker, etc. …

Examples?

ISTM that the problem is not a flat-out “never do this” statement, but a matter of what the intent is. Certain conservative Republican speakers use “Democrat” where “Democratic” is preferable, including in the formal name of the Democratic Party, as a means of belittling and marginalizing the Democrats (plural proper noun) so described. I can see the rare occasion when “Democrat” can serve as noun-used-as-modifier with no ill intent, but it’s disingenuous to suggest that it’s purely coincidental that references to the Democrat Party and “liberal Democrat policies” are generally made by right-wing Republican speakers and writers.

A good parallel might be “Episcopal/-ian” … I belong to The Episcopal Church; I am an Episcopalian. Our distinctive doctrines are Episcopalian; the Episcopal Conference is something Roman Catholic bishops have, not us.

But whenever somebody refers to “the Episcopalian Church,” one knows, with about 95% certainty, that what follows will be an attack on: (1) gay priests and bishops, (2) women priests and bishops; (3) liberal theology; or (4) the wrongheaded refusal on the part of my church to be as condemnatory, judgmental, and exclusionistic as his true-Scotsman Christian church is.

Make sense said that way?

[zamboniracer]

Forgive me if this is argumentative in the General Questions thread, but it seems to me that the Democrats ought to dig up file footage of Republican icons (ie Reagan, Reagan, Reagan, Goldwater, Ford, Nixon & Eisenhower) saying the word, “Democratic” and use it to illustrate the error of the current Republicans use of the term.

[harveyc]

@Polycarp

ISTM that the problem is not a flat-out “never do this” statement, but a matter of what the intent is. Certain conservative Republican speakers use “Democrat” where “Democratic” is preferable, including in the formal name of the Democratic Party, as a means of belittling and marginalizing the Democrats (plural proper noun) so described. I can see the rare occasion when “Democrat” can serve as noun-used-as-modifier with no ill intent, but it’s disingenuous to suggest that it’s purely coincidental that references to the Democrat Party and “liberal Democrat policies” are generally made by right-wing Republican speakers and writers.

A good parallel might be “Episcopal/-ian” … I belong to The Episcopal Church; I am an Episcopalian. Our distinctive doctrines are Episcopalian; the Episcopal Conference is something Roman Catholic bishops have, not us.

But whenever somebody refers to “the Episcopalian Church,” one knows, with about 95% certainty, that what follows will be an attack on: (1) gay priests and bishops, (2) women priests and bishops; (3) liberal theology; or (4) the wrongheaded refusal on the part of my church to be as condemnatory, judgmental, and exclusionistic as his true-Scotsman Christian church is.

Make sense said that way?

Great example, btw, of an adjectival versus noun modifier form.

I used “Democrat Candidate” with no intent nor forethought of demeaning Democrats. I have seen this all my life on roadside posters saying “Democrat Candidate for …”

[AskNott]

I had a darn good reply written out, but I checked and found we’re still in General Questions. It wouldn’t be prudent to toy with the name of Mr. Cheney’s party here in GQ. Dagnabbit.

[The_Hamster_King]

Yesterday the President said that his use of the phrase “Democrat majority” was an oversight. He meant to say “Democratic majority” and didn’t intend to give offense.

[Ludovic]

@Captain Lance Murdoch

In a similar vein most Republicans stopped using the term “global warming” all at once a few years ago in favor of “climate change.”

Dunno about this one. People who believe that Global Climate Change, a part of which is a rising of average temperatures, have started to refer to it as “Global Climate Change” in order to not imply that temperatures are increasing everywhere.

OTOH, I would expect someone who thinks that GCC is nothing to be concerned about to refer to the phenomenon as Global Warming, since it is a strawman which is more easily “debunked” – “Hey, it’s not warmer than it was last year in Topeka! I guess there’s no such thing as global warming after all!”

Unless of course you were implying that Republicans are in favor of doing more to moderate GCC, in which case carry on…

[Randy_Seltzer]

@harveyc

Premise: “Using a noun as a modifier is not grammatically incorrect in modern English.”

[nitpick]
Hard to tell whether or not you’re trying to turn this into a political debate. But just in case you’re not, let me put on my English Teacher Hat. Using a noun as a modifier is not necessarily grammatically incorrect in ANY kind of English. Penguin enclosure. Peanut gallery. Toe jam. Walrus gumboot.

A neat page on sentence diagramming.

Of course, in context, these nouns function as adjectives, and will appear as such on sentence diagrams.

This has been touched-upon by above posts about the Vietnam War. But here’s another perspective.
[/nitpick]

[Acsenray]

@mlees

I always thought that Democratic meant “Of, or pertaining to, democracy or the democratic process”

That’s “democratic,” with a small d.

For example, the use of the word “Democratic” in my example here carries it’s own subtle mental manipulation, even though I am using it in the way you suggest is correct

That may be, but people do generally choose names for their own organizations that have positive connotations.

[Squink]

@Pochacco

Yesterday the President said that his use of the phrase “Democrat majority” was an oversight. He meant to say “Democratic majority” and didn’t intend to give offense.

His continued persistence in using the term makes the sincerity of that apology doubtful:

And I’d like to work with the Democrat leadership, as well as, obviously, my Republican folks, to get it done.
…
I got a letter the other day from a group of Republican and Democrat senators talking about the desire to work on health care.
…
it’s an important piece of legislation, and will reach out to Democrat members, as well as Republican members, to get this bill reauthorized.

Briefing Room | The White House

[What_the]

@Jackmannii

Agreed. “The Democrat Party” is a device employed by political opponents in order to avoid calling their rivals “Democratic”.

There’s no reasoning grounded in proper usage for this.

Might as well call the other side “Repooplicans”* if playground stuff is your thing.
I’ve trademarked this to be on the safe side.

If Democratic Party would that make the members “Democratics”?

This may have been asked and answered above but I didn’t want to wade thru the “poopys”.

[samclem]

Moderator steps in–No, not a warning, just a caution.

harveyc–you deserve an award for your tenacity in bringing this back to your original question every time a poster tries to take it off into a debate. And I appreciate those who have offered GQ-like answers. I know that the subject matter makes it hard to stay narrowly on topic, but thanks to those who do.

If anyone wants a debate on motivations of parties about useage of Democrat-vs-democratic, start something in Great Debates. Or maybe there’s already a thread we’ve done over there on the subject. Factual answers with cites about the motivations are allowed.

Again, I’m not on anyone’s ass about this, just generalizing.

samclem Moderator in General Questions