Democrats and Farrakhan

Something strange is happening when I hit “Preview”, so there may be some formatting issues in this post.

Well, unlike Trump, Cruz is not a virtual “zero”, he has an established political record. Thing is, that record seems largely in support of policies that potentially serve my personal interests, but by and large seem more likely to cause societal harm for little societal benefit (by the metrics I have become accustomed to judging such things by).

Just grabbing a paragraph off the wiki page titled “Political positions of Ted Cruz”, as it currently stands:

And breaking it down:

“Cruz supports free trade” : I’m cool with that.

“wishes to abolish the Internal Revenue Service and implement a single tax for all citizens” : well, as a wish, sure… I wish for a pony, too. The idea is absurd, though; I’ve accepted progressive taxation and a federal agency to collect it, as necessary evils to keep society running. I don’t quite count this as a negative, just wishful thinking on Cruz’s part.

“opposes a higher minimum wage” : This is something I think better managed at the state or even municipal level. I’m okay with the Feds setting a minimum, indexed to inflation perhaps, and states or major cities going higher if they want.

“supports downsizing the United States government” : I’d have to know his specifics - such promises have become Republican boilerplate by now - and if he’s talking about reducing the EPA or CDC, I would view as a strong negative his implied ignorance of history, when industrial pollution and infectious disease were far more common.

“Cruz is pro-life” : I am pro-choice because it seems obvious to me that pro-life laws and nuisance regulations do more harm than good. Whatever religious motivations Cruz might have, I’m confident I do not share.

“against Obamacare” : It seems fairly obvious to me that the most economical and beneficial solution (or the least-worst option, anyway) is to move toward single-payer. Just being against Obamacare would get Cruz no points - what is his suggested alternative, and if that happens to be “the pre-Obamacare status quo” or “let the market decide”, then I’d view him negatively because these are not improvements, nor are they less expensive than single-payer.

“[against] same-sex marriage” : I’d like him to present a non-stupid reason to oppose SSM, since I’ve yet to hear one from anybody. It looks like an obvious application of equal protection of the law and harms nobody, so let it go.

“[against] legalization of marijuana” : this point and the previous one make me question his implied desire for smaller government, and it’s implied corollary, less governmental interference in the lives of Americans. If he means smaller government only in the sense of “less regulation of business in America”, I’d prefer he be explicit on it. I personally favour legalization of marijuana not because I myself am a user (I am not and never have been), but because I don’t see it as dangerous enough to be worth the considerable costs of outlawing it. Regulated to same extent as tobacco and alcohol, sure. Kept out of the hands of minors, no problem.

“[against] net neutrality” : it’s early days in post-NN America. I’m honestly not sure what the effects of elimination will be. I have misgivings but I’m not confident enough that bad stuff will happen (or at least bad stuff that wasn’t going to happen anyway) to feel much political concern.

“in favor of the death penalty” : As am I, in theory, but the application of it of America is so utterly screwed up that I’d be inclined to just abolish for simplicity. To me Charles Ng is the classic case - California went to great and expensive lengths to get Canada to extradite this clown, and once they had him, six years passed before they put him on trial, at a cost of about $20 million… and he’s been on death row for eighteen years. Why even have a death penalty if a monster like Ng will likely die of old age (he’s 57 now) before it applies to him? I am confident there is a sane and timely approach to capital punishment, but whatever bass-ackward version is now bring practiced across the U.S… that ain’t it. I wouldn’t consider this a negative against Cruz. I might view it as a slight positive if he’d made statements to the effect of favouring a pragmatic approach.

“[favours] the USA Freedom Act” : I’d have to look this up.

“[favours] school choice” : Like… vouchers and stuff? I’m not that familiar with the issue, but it seems like education has a shockingly low priority in the U.S., and religious interference in the teaching of science is something I find distasteful. I’d need more detail, but I don’t think Cruz’s full position is likely to be one I’d support.

“[favours] gun rights” : I don’t personally hold the view that widespread personal gun ownership is necessary to resist tyranny (frankly, this strikes me as a latter-day fantasy), but it’s seems clear that the U.S. has a lot of guns and a lot of crime involving guns. My approach to reducing the latter would start with legalizing drugs, truth be told. The gun thing will take a generational change, hopefully and gradually talking Americans into seeing their votes and voices as keys to changing the system, not their stockpiles in expectation of the system collapsing. It would not likely affect my decision to vote for or against Cruz.

“Environmentally, Cruz is opposed to both the scientific consensus on climate change and the Water Resources Development Act.” : heh… sorry, Teddy, if you’re opposed to scientific consensus, I’m very likely to find myself opposed to you. Granted, Cruz himself likely wouldn’t phrase his position this way - it’s just the interpretation of some Wikipedia editor, after all - but I’d be alert to weasel words like “teach the controversy” and “the evidence isn’t all in yet.” I don’t have children, so I can’t say I’m overly concerned about what their children will have to deal with, but I do favour more efficient, less polluting energy sources.

“Finally, in regards to foreign policy, Cruz is “somewhere in between” Rand Paul’s non-interventionist position and John McCain’s active interventionism; Cruz opposes the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action against Iran, the United States–Cuban Thaw, and the Agenda 21 action plan with other countries.” : I have to read up on the specifics, but “somewhere in between” sounds acceptable, as it usually is. I think the U.S. should really chill out about Cuba, though. If you’re that eager to destroy them, you should be sending your tourists there, and in huge numbers. I don’t see how they could remain your enemy as they get gradually turned into a homogenized money-driven Disneyland.
So to answer your question… ummm… truth be told I don’t really understand your question. Trump is manifestly unqualified to be president, in my opinion, but if his opponent was someone who had political experience but a record on issues that I found overall negative, my likely response is to abstain or go third-party. I’m not sure if this implies hypocrisy on my part, but I kinda get the sense you were suggesting it would.

True, you didn’t understand it. See post #57.

I’m still having odd problems with Edit, Reply and Preview.

I see Fotheringay-Phipps expanded on the question a bit in responses to other users. If I’m reading this correctly, I think it’s along the lines of:

Bryan: “how bad would a Democrat have to be before Trump is the preferred choice?”

FP: “What if Ted Cruz [a person I presume you’d consider to be pretty bad] was a Democrat, running against Trump?”

I guess the answer I should have written, instead of a lengthy analysis of Ted Cruz, would say that I don’t care about Republican/Democrat, and that I feel no compulsive loyalty to the Democrats. They’ve gotten my (hypothetical) support by default these past 25 years because the Republican platform has gotten further and further from what I consider reasonable. I don’t doubt there are some moderate Republicans I would find personally acceptable (even positive) and numerous Democrats I would find unacceptable (even batshit crazy), but the party positions overall are such that the Democrats are currently closer to me views and the Republicans are getting further away. Would I potentially vote for Democrat Cruz (granting for the sake of argument that he would be exactly the same in all respects but would somehow be a Democrat)… possibly, but probably not.

Trump is somewhat neutral in that regard - I have no doubt whatsoever that he cares nothing about the major Republican party planks and would gladly have run as a Democrat if that had represented the line of least resistance. I’d oppose anyone trying to get the presidency who had never served public office of any kind, including in the military. That does not mean I’d support their opponent by default. I’m okay with withholding my vote or going third-party if I can find nothing to like in either major-party candidate, i.e. a Davis/Cruz contest, assuming I didn’t find anything in Davis I liked.

This is the question he asked, Bryan.

What counts as manifest human failings to one person may count as just being a human that has grown and evolved to another.

Huh… wow, I’m clearly all at sea on this, given how I made a mistaken interpretation of **Fotheringay-Phipps’ **original question in #55 and then kept building on that mistake.

If I may attempt to redeem myself, finally… Trump pretty much brings nothing to the presidency - he has no record in either chamber of the U.S. Congress, had never been a state governor, had never held public office of any kind. If the question is, would I vote for his politically-experienced opponent, even if that opponent had policy positions I found uniformly negative or had expressed sympathies for blatant bigots? Well, I wasn’t very specific in my original statement when I said the guy would have to be “pretty bad” and… I’m not sure anything would be served by trying to get specific on this, to try to sinter out some mathematical formula that lets me plug in “well, HOW pro-life is he?” and “well, HOW many minorities did he help lynch back in the fifties?” and get an up-or-down result. I suppose I could tolerate a pro-life candidate who, while governor of his home state, had supported policies that moved that state from an economic ranking of #45 to #25. I don’t care as much about purely personal failings like how often he cheated on his wife.

Afterthought: And I see I missed again… I will make one more attempt and it will not reference Trump at all, since the question wasn’t about him, but someone else (i.e. Cruz) in his place.

Okay, if it came down to Davis vs. Cruz, where:

Davis is coy regarding his feelings about Farrakhan, who can rightly be said to be a bigot and a nut, but who has political influence over the voters Davis needs and likely cannot afford to alienate by speaking badly about Farrakhan. Looking into his other positions, he co-sponsored H.R.4980, the "Preventing Allocation of Resources for Absurd Defense Expenditures Act” or the “PARADE Act”, which seems to outlaw the spending of taxpayer money on parades called by the president as an act of ego, which I find amusing in and of itself. He’s in favour of minimizing the impact on first-time nonviolent misdemeanor offenders, i.e. don’t demand bail from them, but send them into diversion programs. I can support this, since sending such people to jail only seems to increase their odds of become serious criminals down the road, while giving them a chance at diversion might put them on a law-abiding path. Davis wants higher taxes on the sale of firearms and ammunition (H.R. 5103). I think it safe to generally assume he follows the Democrat line on most issues.

Cruz is… Cruz, in all his glorious Cruzness.

If I had to choose, I’d weigh my misgivings about Davis’s association with Farrakhan vs. the few things I like and the many things I dislike about Cruz… and vote Davis. This would be a more difficult choice if Davis was on record going out of his way to praise Farrakhan, or saying things as nutty-bigoted as Farrakhan has or, hypothetically, expressing sympathy for people who express Farrakhan’s beliefs through violence. As is stands, with the information here presented, Davis’s association with Farrakhan certainly isn’t good, but it seems minor enough and readily explained by political reality.

If I’ve still missed the point of the question, then I dunno, man…

I think you’ve got it. I came up with a difference answer, since I’m imagining a scenario in which Cruz (as much as I dislike him) consistently and very harshly criticized Trump and his enablers for their various bigotries, which is what I wish Davis had done (and most other Democrats actually have done) with Farrakhan.

That would make me feel a little less negatively toward Cruz, but I don’t anticipate voting for him if everything else about him remains unchanged. I could vaguely picture him as a potential political ally - working with a noxious politician against other, more noxious politicians… but arguably that’s Davis’s position - careful neutrality toward someone hateful who is nevertheless useful.

Ironically (?), Farrakhan has praised Trump for not taking campaign donations from Jewish groups. There apparently is some kind of a bond there.

As for Keith Ellison, I can’t get too worked up over alleged “cheap shots” against him, seeing it’s been documented that he had a decade-long relationship with the Nation of Islam, and it certainly should’ve been obvious at some point to him that its leaders espoused virulent bigotry.

As to whether Congressman Danny Davis was “misquoted” when he called Farrakhan “an outstanding human being”, I have my doubts. It probably seemed like the right thing to say at the time. And the Women’s March people may just be suffering from temporary insanity.

Farrakhan’s virtuoso performance this time around may have his more mainstream political supporters actually running for cover on a permanent basis. We’ll see if outpourings like the following did the trick.

*"Farrakhan also promoted the anti-Semitic conspiracy trope that Jews control the government and Hollywood. He told the crowd that the “white people running Mexico are Mexican-Jews,” and went on to say that Ukraine, France, Poland and Germany are controlled by Jews who “take on the culture, the money, the business” of those countries.

He told the audience, “the Jews have control over those agencies of government,” particularly the FBI, and in life “when you want something in this world, the Jew holds the door.” He claimed that Jewish people are the ones responsible for the “degenerate behavior in Hollywood turning men into women and women into men,” and that Jews are “the mother and father of apartheid.” He also promoted the “Pot Plot” conspiracy that the Jews and the US government are manipulating strains of marijuana to feminize black men. “God did not create man to lay with man. But you are being chemically programmed against your nature, you don’t know it.”"*

Great stuff. But ya know, Trump and Roy Moore.

Heh, “outstanding”… a word that often but doesn’t necessarily express praise. If that is what Davis said (and all he said), I kinda admire his tight-ropery.

No, that was it, this time.

The point I was making - and which you apparently agree with, based on your response - was that a given politician’s refusal to denounce some racist is not always an absolute deal breaker, but needs to be weighed against other considerations. So someone who “supports” a candidate of this sort may not be disagreeing with you about anything directly related to racism, but rather about those other considerations.

Something to consider when contemplating why other people vote and act the way they do.

Well, I’ll cheerfully make allowances for single-issue voters who blindly go Republican because of abortion, guns or taxes (that last one is a bit less-well-founded, though), but anyone who voted for Trump because they thought they saw positive qualities in Trump… well… I don’t mind admitting that person is dumb. I’m a big enough man to make that admission. :smiley:

Reagan’s response to Charlie Wilson’s War: “Afghanistan? Is that still going on?”

Sorry, this is either PC gone wild or just another Republican shit-flinging attempt. Farrakhan is long past being significant. I prefer Damon Wayans anyway. :stuck_out_tongue:

It’s okay to be less vigilant of Jew-hatred because

It’s not OK or even efficient to have to track down every possible instance of antisemitism and condemn it. Just take “I condemn antisemitism in all its forms” as a general statement and move on to actual, you know, relevant and pressing issues.

Assuming this is a serious sentence-fragment, I propose it could be because Farrakhan and his followers have limited impact and someone could easily decide to prioritize other concerns, possibly including other Jew-haters who may have significantly greater influence over the current presidential administration and majority party in Congress.

I don’t think we should make excuses for it. Democrats should condemn Farrakhan’s bigotry without reservation, and a few Democrats aren’t doing that, and they should be criticized.

And that’s a very fine point made. Except there are lots of people who vote and act the way they do precisely because their candidate has expressed racist opinions and conducted himself in a racist manner. Shouldn’t that be the more salient point and justifiable cause to question a given supporter’s motive?

Maybe it’s just my line in the sand, but racism & bigotry has a whole different stench about it than something like a mixed economic record, or soft foreign policy stance. I mean, reasonable informed people can disagree on the TPP, but racism speaks to a fundamental character flaw.

Once there are also some people who support a candidate in spite of racist opinions and not because of them, then you can’t necessarily use support for a candidate, in and of itself, as an indication of support for his racism.

If you have other indications, that’s something else. But if it’s just “you support so-and-so and he said such-and-such”, then that doesn’t follow.

Of course, it does show at a minimum that you think that the guy’s racism is an acceptable price to pay for his other positions or qualities. So a lot would depend on the level of racism as balanced against other positions. If the guy’s racism is “bring back slavery” then it’s unlikely that other positions could overcome that. If the guy has said a few insensitive things here and there, then that’s something else.