I disagree with your disagreement. At this point AIG is in stable but critical shape, to use medical terms. However, by pushing on this (stupid IMHO) issue, this could throw them over the edge in a number of ways. First off, even more people still at AIG may leave. After all, look at the level of hate and invective being thrown at them, and in many cases at folks who didn’t have either any say in the decision process that brought about the problem, were against it, or weren’t even there at all.
Next up, I’m guessing that there are going to be law suits over this, and while the government SHOULD get the blame, my guess is AIG is going to be dragged in…and simply put they can’t afford the further bad publicity this is generating. The idea here is to SELL off large pieces of AIG, to stabilize the whole long enough to break up the company (and firewall off the good parts) so that it can be sold off to get OUR FUCKING MONEY BACK.
What I’m seeing through this knee jerk reaction and through the political grandstanding going on over this stupid issue is the endangerment of that goal. And for an amount of money literally less than a percentage point of the total we forked over. It’s…fucking…stupid.
And the sad thing is that when we don’t end up getting our money back the politicians and the other idiots swallowing this whole line of bullshit are going to be pointing fingers everywhere and/or looking around with a puzzled look on their collective faces and going ‘What happened??’.
People will be irritated by broke people getting bailed out to save their homes and thus the economy, but your failure to see the difference between that and rich people getting bailed out to save their hawaiian vacations and thus taking money directly away from the effort to save the economy, now that is an impressive failure.
I wouldn’t want to be working at AIG right now, but honestly any employee there who quits because of the bonus being rescinded is an ass. It’s legitimate to be afraid of the mass hatred of AIG employees. The bonuses are feuling that hatred. Any sensible AIG employee would be refusing them and returning them like the hot potato they are - unless, of course, their priorities are to take their bonuses and flee to the more comfortable environment of the bahamas, flipping the states a finger as they leave.
I agree it is inefficient, narrowly construed. Issues of what is just are hardly about economic efficiency. In fact I think there’s something to be said that democratic systems are inherently wasteful. Benevolent dictators are much better. But so what? Efficiency is not the final arbiter. If we’re going to throw away our sense of justice and fairness every time there’s an ill wind because it wouldn’t be efficient to do so, you can forget about justice and fairness, because people will start making fans, in which case, what are you struggling to salvage, anyway? I’m not saying this is a grand injustice. Neither is the murder of one individual in a world population of billions, again so narrowly construed. But that is why I have suggested that efficiency is not the final arbiter, to which you agreed. So can we stop agreeing already and get back to arguing about something?
Oh? Even if people are stupid enough to think AIG is going to increase these bonuses a thousand-fold, why should the politicians act based on this ignorance?
I must have missed the part where they are slaves or captive servants of the people or whatever. Are you under the impression that none of these folks could get jobs with, you know, other companies?
-XT
When a murderer has sequestered body parts across a geographic region, we don’t pay him millions of dollars to unravel his spree. I cannot believe anyone could possibly argue this position and sleep at night. People who wrecked hundreds of thousands of lives, and we should just get over it as last year’s business, hey, no worries, here’s an extra bonus for fucking us over, nice work on being paid to create a gordian knot, here’s a few more mil to unwind it.
It’s beyond believability. Where is the party of responsibility? Where is the conservative value of punishing people for screwing up? Apparently only the government and tax payers have bitter pills to swallow.
It is Obama’s fault, now. Wonderful. My god, Sam.
As I heard the news reports, the administration was struggling to handle the outrage that already existed.
I hope the entire industry isn’t so stupid as to let massive corporations fail as petty revenge for not paying bonuses with taxpayer dollars. God damn.
OK. So the contracts were not technically violated…the end result is the same as if they were. It is like when the bully hits you and you say, “stop touching me”, and he says, “I am not technically touching you…there is an atom of space between us.”
I could have gone either way with all of the bailouts in general. I saw the case on both sides. Whatever. The government went ahead with them and I am waiting to see what happens. I just think that spending time bickering over these bonuses is a tremendous waste of time.
No, though in his former position he played a part (I put as much blame on Congress and the Senate as I do on AIG over this fuckup). However, let me ask you something here. Just pure speculation. What happens if this blowup results in AIG going completely tits up, in all those BILLIONS of dollars going down the drain? Who will be to blame for that? Will it be Bush? Will it be Liddy? Will it be AIG? Who will be to blame for this if indeed this blows up in our collective faces? Who do YOU think will be to blame?
Just for drill I’ll give you my answer, in order of blame…Congress (both sides)…Obama…our stupid fucking selves.
What makes you say they are in stable shape? The money they sent to the banks seem to be collateral forced to be paid when things got worse than various triggers. Unless you think we have hit bottom, there is a good chance that a worse climate will trigger more payments. If you think this payment to them was the last, you are far more optimistic than I am.
Any suits would be by the bonusees vs the government, since AIG is not expected to break any contractual obligations to them. The bad publicity is there. already, and Liddy said that they are going to change their name. I think that has been clear since they almost dragged the global economy down by their stupidity, but I agree that this hasn’t helped any. But that train has left the station.
I expect the selling off of the good parts, which I agree is needed, is going to wait until there is some chance that we could get a good price. By then, the furor will have died down. In any case, it is not going to be sold in K-Mart, and the parts will be renamed anyhow.
I totally agree that it would have been better for everyone to have focused on the important issues. But that’s not the way our society works. People need someone really specific to use as an outlet for their anger. The triviality of the bonuses relative to the bailout makes this worse. Who can understand 150 billion dollars, but the thought of some guy involved in creating this mess getting a million bucks when people are losing their jobs and their homes naturally makes people livid. It truly is a “let them eat cake” moment.
I’m only surprised that half the House Republicans have so little political sense that they are willing to go back to their constituents to explain why these guys getting their millions is fine with them.
I have let my emotions get the better of me. Sam, I am sure you sleep fine at night and I apologize for my rather mean-spirited implication. I will bow out of this one.
But now you are getting into ethics. Legally, the contracts are solid, but so is the tax. Morally, the tax is dubious, but so are the bonuses. The AIG people could have stopped this whole thing days ago by agreeing that all the highly paid ones turn the bonuses back. (As some have, too late.) They could have issued a statement through AIG’s PR Department. Keeping silent makes it seem they think they deserve it, which is not politically expedient.
I agree it is a waste of time, but sometimes this illogical stuff has to be dealt with before the real work can get done. Ever have a manager who is so busy dealing with a crisis that he doesn’t have time to tell people what is going on? This is kind of similar. And it is a lot more efficient than dealing with anti-AIG riots.
You are equating the market in general with AIG specifically. Thus far, AIG has managed to fire wall off many of their BU’s that were (and are) in the black, and to start the process of shoring up the really bad parts. They have managed to stabilize the situation for now, and if the market picks up and if liquidity starts to come back into play they WILL be able to sell off some of those more successful BU’s (or take them public).
Or they would, if this entire fuckup wasn’t in the process of knocking out the supports that the current team has been working on erecting for the past few months.
Perception is everything. As you know, this is key in the market…and right now we (collectively, especially our brilliant representatives) are in the process of knocking those perceptions to the ground and stomping on them hard. How do YOU think this will effect the marketability for selling off those BU’s that are solid?
The folks who make those decisions do so based on a wide range of perceptions and metrics. Assuming that AIG (even renamed) SURVIVES long enough for liquidity to return to the market, you don’t actually believe that the folks who would be buying off large pieces of it are going to be fooled because it’s called something else?
They are idiots. But then, so are the Democrats. My head came fairly close to exploding several times at the levels of stupidity in those hearings…and the levels of political grandstanding were nauseating.
And…it seems to have worked. Look at the majority reaction in this thread alone. And 'dopers are, by and large, more politically savvy than the average bear (or citizen), at least usually. But take a good look at what some 'dopers are saying in here…not the gonzo’s, but some of the more rational (usually) 'dopers.
You know what would be even more efficient, less likely to destroy the whole asset, and not involve sacrificing any moral high ground? Teaching people to count.
Explain to them that only one dollar in every $1030 is going to these bonuses, which leaves the other $1029 to be spent on things that don’t make small minds boil with rage.
We on agree on some things, but not others. Let’s argue
To me the injustice is not that the AIG people took money that was already coming to them as part of a contract that was negotiated BEFORE the bailout. The injustice is that congress is screwing them out of it through some backdoor tax shenanigans. The other injustice, and the one that concerns me most, is that congress is spending their time on this instead of on other issues.
Those buying the pieces will do so based on their viability - which is pretty good. Sure they will try to get a better price because of the notoriety, but at that level the tarnishing of the AIG name is going to count a lot more than the problems of this division. As for people leaving, we see that they are doing that anyway, retention or no. I’m sure it isn’t a great place to work even before this stuff hit.
If only we lived on Vulcan. Sure it is intellectually stupid. But this has been building for years now, and it is just as stupid to ignore the anger. Maybe this will convince the masses that Congress is actually listening to them, and it might keep every bonus paid to anyone getting front page news.
Both good points. I agree that the AIG people could have, and should have, not taken the bonuses and we would all be saving a lot of wasted time. I just do not see the point in vilifying them…especially when it is congress who has been messing shit up for years.
How many times do I have to repeat that the people in question are not the ones who caused the problem? These people are not the wizards who came up with the flaky financial instruments or pushed them into the market. Those people are long gone from AIG. These are the people brought in to FIX the damned problem. They’re doing the job the government WANTS them to do - to untangle the mess, figure out the values of everything, get the books in order, and help to prepare to sell off the financial products division so AIG can get back on its feet.
Your need to paint them as the villians in this affair has no basis in reality.
You know very well that Obama fanatics here will never be convinced.
Sure it is intellectually stupid. But this has been building for years now, and it is just as stupid to ignore the anger. Maybe this will convince the masses that Congress is actually listening to them, and it might keep every bonus paid to anyone getting front page news.