DrDeth
February 22, 2018, 8:13pm
181
kenobi_65:
Of course it’s impossible, and, IMO, most supporters of increased gun regulation don’t expect that “zero shootings” will ever happen, and so, I think that’s a strawman argument.
Sure, but will not a cry come up for more gun laws every time there is a school or mass shooting?
So it’s not a strawman. If there is a mass shooting there is no doubt at all that a cry will occur for more gun laws.
IOW, it’s not a strawman, just a slippery slope.
DrDeth
February 22, 2018, 8:14pm
183
RTFirefly:
I don’t see evidence that supports your conclusion here.
What I’m seeing is “here’s a number at Point B, so the changes made at Point A have had no effect.” I’m not seeing a comparison of any sort.
Show me numbers that do show gun control laws in America have had a significant effect on violent crime.
I have not seen any stats that show that.
JohnT
February 22, 2018, 8:16pm
185
DrDeth:
Nope. We have some guns laws on the books. They dont seem to be doing much- no hurting the rights of gun owners nor significantly reducing violent crime. We’re mostly used to them, so I’d more or less leave them as is. Maybe get rid of the stupid CA “no new manufactured guns” sneak law.
But see, that’s the point.
We have tried, hell we are* trying* modest gun control laws. They dont work. So obviously to the Gun Grabbers, we need more gun laws. So lets say we give in. All weapons must be registered. No “gun show loophole” (that’s not really a thing, mind you), all “assault weapons” are banned, you have to take a class to buy a handgun, all semi-auto weapons are restricted.
Will those stop all mass shootings or school shootings?
Nope, impossible.
So there will be another horrible tragedy, and the gun grabbers will call for even more laws. Tragedy, even stricter laws- and so forth.
But the Gun grabbers just can’t admit that gun control laws here in the uSA do not reduce violent crime. They simply dont work.
When the oasis is overrun by the desert, is it the oasis’s fault for being surrounded by desert?
DrDeth:
Not gun control.
More counseling so kids dont turn to shooting.
Have the teachers care more about the students. Smaller class sizes.
Bullying must be controled.
Well, there’s your answer for school shootings. How about church shootings, nightclub shootings, movie theater shootings, outdoor concert shootings, random location shootings…
My point being that an effort to protect particular locations from shootings is basically dealing with many thousands of discrete problems piecemeal, instead of dealing with the global problem of guns.
Airbeck
February 22, 2018, 8:30pm
187
DrDeth:
No, since it’s a fact.
A prediction, by definition, is not a fact.
I predict the White Sox will win the world series this year. Is that a fact too?
OK, the Giffords Law Center reports that California ranks 43rd out of 50 states in its rate of gun deaths per capita, ETA: with 7.7 gun deaths per 100,000 population in 2016.
Other states with tough gun laws, like Massachusetts (which has had tough gun laws for quite some time) and Connecticut (which passed tough gun laws after Newtown) are 50th and 46th, respectively.
Bah…disingenuousness . I hate it when I type a post too quickly and miss elementary typos…
RTFirefly:
OK, the Giffords Law Center reports that California ranks 43rd out of 50 states in its rate of gun deaths per capita, ETA: with 7.7 gun deaths per 100,000 population in 2016.
Other states with tough gun laws, like Massachusetts (which has had tough gun laws for quite some time) and Connecticut (which passed tough gun laws after Newtown) are 50th and 46th, respectively.
Sounds fairly correlative to me.
Of course, since Giffords is a Democrat, I’m sure it’ll be passed off as fake news by the other side.
And one of the victims in a mass shooting, at that.
DrDeth
February 22, 2018, 9:35pm
192
RTFirefly:
OK, the Giffords Law Center reports that California ranks 43rd out of 50 states in its rate of gun deaths per capita.
Other states with tough gun laws, like Massachusetts (which has had tough gun laws for quite some time) and Connecticut (which passed tough gun laws after Newtown) are 50th and 46th, respectively.
Odd, those numbers arent back by anything,lets looks at some real stats, eh?
Hmm, but it is rather hard to pull “gun deaths” out. And “gun deaths” can include suicides.
So let us take a look at homicide rates, which can be verified:
This is a list of US states by gun deaths and rates of violence. In 2021, there were 26,000 gun suicides and 21,000 gun homicides, together making up a sixth of deaths from external causes. Gun deaths make up about half of all suicides, but over 80% of homicides.
Gun deaths in 2021 rose to levels not seen since the 1990s, but remained below rates of the 1970s.
A 2022 study found that guns were the cause of more years lost than any other source of traumatic injury, including motor vehicles.
CA ranks squarely in the middle. Mass is 6th highest. Conn - 17th.
So, either their stats are bullshit, or you just proved that when you reduce guns, killers kill with other weapons.
But actually, their stats are bullshit since we do have some decent numbers for gun deaths:
This is a list of US states by gun deaths and rates of violence. In 2021, there were 26,000 gun suicides and 21,000 gun homicides, together making up a sixth of deaths from external causes. Gun deaths make up about half of all suicides, but over 80% of homicides.
Gun deaths in 2021 rose to levels not seen since the 1990s, but remained below rates of the 1970s.
A 2022 study found that guns were the cause of more years lost than any other source of traumatic injury, including motor vehicles.
CA ranks 12th, DC with super strict laws ranks 1st.
scr4
February 22, 2018, 9:41pm
193
So when someone from CA comes to a gun show in AZ and tries to buy a gun from a private seller, what happens?
DrDeth
February 22, 2018, 9:43pm
194
He may suceed or not. But in any case, it is against the law.
scr4
February 22, 2018, 9:47pm
196
The law is only as good as the enforcement (see DACA, recreational marijuana, etc).
So, what enforcement mechanisms are there to prevent out-of-state residents from making gun purchases at a gun show in AZ?
scr4
February 22, 2018, 9:50pm
197
p.s. Is this web site accurate and/or reputable? It says this about private gun sales:
Lamoral
February 22, 2018, 10:00pm
198
septimus:
Let’s get priorities straight.
The GOP’s destruction of ACA will result in killing thousands of Americans every month.
The number of lives that might be saved with better gun control are dwarfed by the other damage that will be done if Republican rule continues. Gun control should be pursued politically only if it will increase the chances for Democrats to win elections and then do more important things.
Listen to reason. Or leave Pence-Ryan in charge for the foreseeable future. The choice is yours.
Thank you for putting it better than I could. Although admittedly my own motivation is more selfish: I’m sick of seeing Donald Trump’s fucking face already and I cannot take 7 more years of it.
By saying “Pence-Ryan” I take it you think Trump is gonna be out of the picture or something. I don’t think so. I believe he stands an excellent chance at re-election.
Calling high school students “babies” is an obvious appeal to emotion, and therefore a fallacy.
OK, a caution to both sides here:
These rankings, however, are merely a quick choice made by the data user; they provide no insight into the many variables that mold the crime in a particular town, city, county, state, region, or other jurisdiction. Consequently, these rankings lead to simplistic and/or incomplete analyses that often create misleading perceptions adversely affecting cities and counties, along with their residents.
There’s more; unfortunately, there isn’t a direct link to it. You have to go tohttps://www.ucrdatatool.gov/ranking.cfm
and click on the link near the upper right labeled ‘Caution against ranking.’