Democrats = weak on terrorism?

Kerry came to represent the Democrats when it became clear he was the party membership’s overwhelming choice as the next President, that’s when. Certainly a lot of factors go into anyone’s voting decisions, but it’s not unreasonable to take the nominee’s position on major issues as being representative of the whole, is it? Yes, what he’d do in a real situation instead of in a position statement on a website is necessarily speculative - but so are all predictions.

As to how the Democrats got the “soft on terror” label, I don’t think you have to look any deeper than the “we gotta go kick their asses” factor, known elsewhere as the Big Dog theory. Anyone who suggests using a little care and thought and planning is easily branded as “soft”, and the lesson isn’t remembered the next time something comes up either.

I agree with you that the Democrats haven’t put together a cohesive plan on what they would do differently in the war on terror. Beyond some vague talk on multilateralism and renewing alliances and working through the UN, there is no real differences. Then again, it is February.

I understand your point now and I apologize if I misconstrued it. OTOH, I don’t agree with you that neither side would have been able to work this in a multilateral fashion. I think that the major thing that poisoned the well was Iraq, and a Democrat would have been far less hung up on Iraq. For that matter, a Republican sitting with an oppposition Congress or a Republican with a less Manichean view of the world would have been less hung up on Iraq.

While the start of military action in Afghanistan was mostly unilateral by the US, it was supported around the world. We have had little problem getting people in there afterwards to do peacekeeping and rebuilding, at least as much as we have asked. Last I checked, the Germans and French had troops there, which of couse is a stark contrast to Iraq. I think some mistakes were made in Afghanistan, for instance, if we are doing the bombing, we also need to be distributing the aid. I think other mistakes were made – the North Korean negotiations, steel tariffs, etc. etc. But, for the most part, the moral initiative 9/11 gave us echoed throughout the world. That was totally squandered by unilateral actions in Iraq, and that is nobody but Bush’s fault. If a Democract gets elected and he finds that we can’t put real effort into a war on terror with the full backing of the EU, China, and Russia, it is Bush’s Iraq Fantasy that is the reason.

The Republican’s relationship with civil rights issues and fiscal justice does not seem to be weak. Abraham Lincoln led a war that ended up in abolition and Teddy Roosevelt busted up monopolistic trusts with vigor and enthusiasm.

However, that was the Republican party of the past. How many of FDR’s co-workers are still working in government, today?

Dunno. You might start with how many gummint empoyees are anywhere from 85 to 125 years old.

And that’s the problem with trying to dig into the past conduct of a political party to predict its present conduct. Go too far back in the USA, and you’ll find that they have changed completely from what they once were. The Republican party of Roosevelt is gone. The Democratic party of Roosevelt (II) is gone, and the Democratic party of Kennedy is almost gone.

At one time, the Republicans were a party of the common people. “Free Soil, Free Labor, Free Speech, Free Men, and Fremont” The Republican platform was to end slavery and hand out government-owned land to ordinary people to live on, not to enormous business interests. Likewise, the Republicans were very big supporters of the Suffragette movement. That was a long time ago. That Republican party has been killed.

(dopeslapping elucidator)

Dude, you knew perfectly well what he meant. :rolleyes:

Yeah, and I was there for the funeral. I didn’t as much leave that party as I was thrown out.

Are Democrats weak on terrorism? Well, they are weak on intelligence and military funding. Does that count?

John Kerry is especially weak in this area, and I expect the Republicans to hit him hard on this. In fact, Kerry has a record of being even weaker on intelligence than his Democratic colleagues. For instance, in 1994 Kerry proposed a bill that to cut $1 billion from the National Foreign Intelligence Program and from Tactical Intelligence. That bill failed. In 1995 Kerry proposed a bill to cut 1.5 billion from the CIA’s budget, but he couldn’t even get a co-sponsor.

In 1997, Kerry said, "“Now that the Cold War is over, why is it that our vast intelligence apparatus continues to grow?”

The Democrats have a history of hostility to the U.S. intelligence agencies, dating back to the Vietnam war. The Nedzi Committee Church Committee and Pike Committee hearings on limiting the power of the CIA were dominated by liberal Democrats. In 1974, Senator Joe Biden joined 16 other Democrats in voting for a bill which would end all covert activity.

One of the prime criticisms of CIA intel is that the CIA had very few human assets embedded in various terrorist organizations around the world. The reason? Because Democrats, led by Robert Torricelli, demanded that the CIA stop recruiting spies who had unsavory backgrounds. Since this by definition includes terrorists, the CIA’s hands were tied.

Democrats were also successful in the 1970’s in greatly enhancing congressional oversight of covert activities - which they then used against the CIA by threatening leaks - Joe Biden admitted he did this in the 1980’s against the Reagan administration.

But hey, don’t take my word for it. Thomas, the register of congressional votes, is online. Go look up any bill that seeks to limit the power of the intelligence community, and you’ll find that it had far more support from Democrats than from Republicans. Look up the voting records for key military assets in the war on terror, such as the Stealth bomber and the cruise missile (Kerry voted against both, as did a majority of Democrats).

Of course, this is all a pretty misleading account of things.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2096127/

Kerry recently said that he thinks we need to expand the number of active duty troops.

Precisely how do you define “ally,” Beagle? And please, by all means, do your best to distinguish “ally” from “kowtowing bitch.” I do wonder what the distinction is for those of your ilk.

Please also be aware that the only “Czar” position in the federal government was created by Bush the Elder. Filled it with a big giant gambling-addict hypocrite, as I recall.

Oh, you Pubbies. You really do get more amusing when the stench of your own defeat is in the air. Golly, it’s like 1992 all over again. By all means, see if you can get Pat Robertson to speak on Wednesday night at the Convention, to fire up the base. The very thought just warms my heart.

Aside from the utterly biased goof of a “translation” I’m not sure I understand the “law enforcement” trope. Bush II used nothing but “law enforcement” until after 9/11, so what’s the point of this exactly? It’s not like there is any coherent “law enforcement” programe vs. what Bush was doing. Clinton wasn’t as proactive about assisinating Osama as he could have been, hoping for a live capture. Bush didn’t change that policy before 9/11, and even now they are STILL working for a live capture, if possible.

Alienating other countries regardless of whether they’ll support our latest policy initiative (they supported us in 9/11) is dumb. Why pointlessly breed bad feelings and deepen the gap? What does that accomplish? We can still do whatever we want, we just have to have capable diplomats.

Centralizing our intelligence agencies is the core recommendation of the pre-9/11 security panel, which by the way, Bush II again ignored until well AFTER 9/11 (scoffing at the idea for a while even afterwards). Doing so at the time well could have prevented 9/11. And it’s not clear that things are really centralized enough even now.

So, do you have anything substantive to complain about, or just rhetoric?

Well, considering you got all these tidbits on Kerry either directly or indirectly from the attack dogs at the Republican National Committee, I think we can safely say that the second half of your sentence is pretty much of a slam-dunk.

Why spend $X[sup]2[/sup] when we can ignore let way more Americans die just as easily for $X?

Inset “it and” wherever it makes the most sense to you. Thanks much.

Sam Stone - you have thoroughly confused me. Explain to me how aggregate dollars appropriated for a particular federal program is precisely co-equal with the relative “strength” or “weakness” of either the aformentioned program, or its adherents?

Or, in smaller words, how does spending more money on defense/intelligence equal “strong” and spending less equal “weak”? The causality escapes me, and I’ll tell you why:

The “Sergeant York” radar-controlled autonomous mobile antiaircraft vehicle - it did not work.

The “Crusader” mobile artillery platform - didn’t work either.

“Star Wars” ICBM defense system - works almost 50% of the time, so Dubya has made it a funding priority. If successfully deployed, we will therefore be (in the immortal words of Billy Crystal in Princess Bride) only mostly dead.

$400 hammers and $1500 toilet seats. Stories about these costly items are probably apocryphal, but the wonderful world of military procurement has a well-deserved reputation for profligacy and idiocy.

Yet somehow these delightful Reagan-era “investments” solidified The Great Communicator as Mr. Strong on Defense Guy, despite the appalling lack of mission integrity endemic to the Lebanon disaster and the dubious distinction of “liberating” Grenada, which are arguably more concrete measures of relative strength or weakness in military policy.

To even further illustrate my point, let’s turn to the wonderful world of the capitalist marketplace. I would consider it axiomatic to declare that the ability of an organization to perform more tasks with a higher incidence of success but for lower costs than competitors, is the clear hallmark of efficiency. In a business sense, efficiency = profit, and profit = strength.

But in Sam’s world, it would seem that a CEO who spends less of his budget to accomplish a specific goal must clearly be weak when it comes to whatever that goal is.

While I sympathize with your desire to impugn the reputation of an individual whose point of view you dislike, GD is not the appropriate forum. Please do us the courtesy of sticking to logical arguments. If you have do not have some other method besides raw dollar outlays to assess relative strength or weakness on matters of public policy, I suggest you recuse yourself from the debate as there is clearly no foundation in reality for such an argument.

(as an aside, I would just like to point out that Don Rumsfeld’s smashing success on the Iraqi battlefield with a “lean, mean” U.S. military was accomplished with equipment, training, and personnel deriving from the Clinton administration. I daresay even Rummy is thanking his lucky stars for Slick Willy’s careful investment in the American fighting soldier and his hi-tech killing machines)

And yet, that same military essentially was what we took into Iraq with us. Many of the weapons systems involved were also looked down upon in some circles…like the Abrams tank, B1 Bomber and the Apache helocopter, and had hung on the verge of being cut at one time or the other. I would say that whatever else good or bad you might say about Regan he WAS strong on defense. I’d love to see the convoluted arguement that shows he wasn’t, when the military his administration pretty much built was so decisive in the first gulf war and that since that time the US has dominated in the world militarily.

I think, with some justification, that a lot of Democrats are seen as ‘weak on defense’ because they are willing to cut funding to defense, or specifically to certain defense projects, in order to re-allocate the money into social programs. You are correct that simply spending money for spending sake on defense is bad and doesn’t necessarily show someone is ‘strong’ on defense. Certainly I don’t see the whole Star Wars thing. But over all, Democrats are percieved as being weak and Republicans strong simply based on how they prioritize defense spending and you aren’t going to get around that perception easily.

Horseshit. The current US military AND its doctorine came from much earlier times. Hell, some of the weapons systems used were in development back to Carters presidency for that matter. Tell me specifically which weapons systems or doctorine came directly from or during the Clinton administration.

Clinton basically inherited the military he got, just as Bush II did…just as Bush I did. I think a good case could be made that the modern US military doctorines and even a lot of their weapons systems stem from Regans administration.

-XT

And yet, I remember the 2000 Presidential Campaign, when George W. Bush was wailing that Clinton’s cuts in defense spending had seriously weakened the United States military. He even made the bullshit claim that if the President were to ask the United States armed forces if they were ready for war, two full batallions would reply in the negative – a bullshit claim that was denied in Congressional testimony the next day.

But then, we already know that Bush is prone to telling whoppers.

Okay. From Slate:

Or, as Al Franken puts it, “Clinton’s military did pretty well in Iraq, huh?” :wink:

Sam Stone
The RNC party line on Kerry and defense spending is at least partly misinterpretation. Another Slate cite argues that Kerry was just voting for cuts that George H. W. Bush, with Colin Powell and Dick Cheney behind him, was pushing. These cuts were made in 1990-1992, and were part of the natural scale back at the end of the Cold War.

Many of the others come from his vote against one Appropriations Act, in which he voted against the whole thing, not individual weapons platforms. Another good chunk of them come from votes taken completely out of context. The 1995 $1.5 billion cut in the CIA budget was for a satellite never launched, and Congress was just asking for a refund for a program that was never started.

I’m sure one could make identical claims against any Senator or Representative who has been in office for 20 years. I’m sure all have voted against swollen appropriations bills or prodecdural and accounting mistakes that could be twisted to look bad in retrospect.

Further evidence that the Bush administration is not all that good on acting to take out terrorist threats:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/

And, to say it works 50% of the time is to greatly exaggerate its effectiveness. It has worked 50% of the time in “toy” tests that have little resemblance to what it would face in a real live situation.

Nice find, edwino. I didn’t have the chance to research this myself so I was content just to point out that Sam’s “facts” on Kerry came directly from the RNC (since he hadn’t given us a cite on them). I was pretty sure that once they were investigated, they would prove to be very deceptive.