You may be right, but I am not very polite, and say anything I want to here. I think atheism can be logically justified, and so I don’t see the need to rant about it like Benny Hinn or one of those other morons. I won’t be very nice if someone tries to limit my freedom, but people going to church doesn’t come anywhere near to doing that, and just makes the grocery store less crowded on Sunday morning.
Well, that was exactly my point. Was I not clear about that? 
I just remember the people interviewed on the 2 hour PBS program, and they were not wild eyed atheists, but regular folks, most of them church-goers. I was responding to the post that said if it weren’t for people like Der Trihs (ie, wild eyed atheists) we would be a Christian theocracy. I thought that was ridiculous hyperbole, since plenty of religious people support the establishment clause, not just atheists.
Me, too. I wish the 1st amendment had been worded even more strongly.
I could be underestimating the lengths he goes to, since I don’t spend much time in GD. But at the very least, the lesser, and included, contentions that belief in a specific higher power seems a little loopy; that the Bible and its sister books seem for all the world to be collections of fairy tales; that those fairy tales don’t provide a superior system of morality; that organized religion has caused most of the world’s problems; and that fervent belief in spiritual beings says something about a person’s rationality; all seem pretty agreeable to me. As for the US-troops-are-evil thing, that’s pretty silly, but there’s a kernel of truth to it: I can’t hold anything against the people who joined a long time ago and didn’t expect to fight an unjust war, or the people who joined after the September 11 attacks expecting to do a good thing for their country, or the people who honestly believe that they’re doing the right thing, but a lot of the people I’ve met in the military ranged from totally apathetic to “LET’S GO KILL US SOME RAGHEADS! WOOOOOO!”
I hear a lot of that latter sentiment from my fellow Jews as well, and it makes me pretty uncomfortable.
I don’t either, mind you. That is, I don’t feel personally affronted or negatively affected in any way by the beliefs of other ordinary people–whatever they gotta tell themselves to get up in the morning don’t bother me none. God? Krishna? IPU? Cuauhtemoc? I don’t care. What I care about is when religious belief is pushed on the public by a vicious minority of fundamentalists, or when religious fundamentalism leads to violence.
Gee, Charlie, good for Europe. I’m happy for you guys. Of course, a more rational observer would not be so shocked by the fact that the American situation is of more immediate concern to me. Let me know when you’ve caught up to the rest of us, Charlie; I’ll be waiting.
I think that pretty much everything that can be said in this subject has been said, but I’ll chime in that I agree with the first three points you made and disagree with the last two.
Yes, the beliefs themselves strike me as loopy too. I used to joke around about Christianity. Let’s see, what were some of the jokes? OK, I used to wonder aloud that if God was so damned omniscient and all-powerful, why was he still so pissed off about a 4,000-year-old fruit tree dispute. Why can’t everyone see that Jesus was the biggest tweaker on earth? Long hair and a beard, raving about worms and lakes of fire, spending all night in the desert arguing about the meaning of life, come on, people, read the clues. (OK, I never said they were good jokes.)
I’ll also agree with the books being essentially fairy tales and the opinion that a theist is no more likely to be moral and upright than an atheist. He’s not less likely, either.
I’ll disagree with religion being a major cause of the world’s problems. As far as I’m concerned, religion has been a scapegoat for the three main factors behind the world’s problems: money, earth, and politics. Religion is what the kings and politicians tell us it’s about, but if one looks deeper, he will find money, earth and/or politics somewhere in there. Also, I don’t think nations are run on religions. They’re run on money, politics, and blood. Religion’s the excuse; it’s the rabbit that the magician pulls out of the hat after setting it on the table, and everyone ooh’s and ahh’s, but they never come together as a group to see just what’s under that table, and why would they? It’s so much easier and more interesting to pay attention to the rabbit.
I’ll also disagree with religion saying anything about a person’s rationality one way or another. I’ve run into too many squared-away Christian surgeons, Jewish shrinks, Muslim engineers, and Buddhist everything’s (You run into a lot of Buddhists in Korea.) to give any credence to the idea that a theist is any less rational or intelligent than an atheist.
In short, I’m more than happy to mock the religion. It’s mocking the religious person that I have a problem with, not just because it’s a dickish thing to do–although it is that–but because it’s simply not true.
I just wanted to observe that this thread started as a pitting of Der Trihs for hijacking religious debates into attacks on individual posters. We as a group have hijacked this attack on an individual poster into a religious debate. I just think it’s a nice symmetry, that’s all. 
And what is religion about? If you say something other than “money, earth and/or politics”, you ought to retake your European History.
I didn’t say intelligent. I said rational.
Now, I’m not claiming to be a rational beast myself. I’m just saying that my initial response when I hear that someone believes in magical sky fairies is that I’m glad he’s running his life and not mine.
What’s simply not true?
Anyway, I don’t mock the religious people either. I’m mocking their beliefs and, to some extent, the effects those beliefs seem to have on them.
Read what you quoted here. I said rational too, and I stand by that. Are you trying to tell me that a surgeon is going to be less rational than you just because he believes? I think you are:
You’re not telling me explicitly, but you are at least implying that you’re more rational than the examples I quoted. Let me put it this way: If I were going be stuck on some deserted island somewhere with someone on whom my survival depends, I wouldn’t give a damn about the other person’s beliefs unless he happened to believe that atheists should be served medium rare to the sky fairies in question. I’d sooner trust the religious guy who knows what he’s doing than an atheist sight unseen.
And anyway, forget about how rational you are or aren’t. Are you seriously trying to tell me that Der Trihs is more rational than the shrinks, surgeons and engineers, because he’s an atheist? The guy’s unhinged.
Or are you using the word “rational” differently from the way most people understand it?
Sorry, I screwed up on edit. I mean that it’s simply not right to insult them for their beliefs alone. I’m not saying you do it. But Der Trihs sure as hell does, and he’s pretty much the last person on the planet who should be casting aspersions on anyone else’s rationality.
That’s not what I said.
Fair enough. Please explain, then, what being a rational person has to do with theism or atheism.
I’ve already explained it. You’re free to scroll up any time you like.