I’d argue just the opposite, and I might even guess that I know where Miller is coming from.
People are blinded to George W. Bush’s actual crimes. The actual abuses of human rights which are taking place in our name. The actual war which was actually fought over made up reasons and for a hidden agenda.
So instead of talking about how this is a man whose course of action is profoundly wrong and unamerican, we quibble over just what shade of evil his crimes are.
Make no mistake, Bush is doing harm to America and the world that will take a long, long time to undo. And this is piss poor bullshit… “Well, he’s corrupt and vile and evil and sends our sons and daughters to die for his lies, but at least he’s not a Hitler so let’s engage in semantic quibbling!”
If history repeats itself, it will be because some people chose to jam their fingers in their ears because Bush was compared to the wrong historical regime.
What traits do you think this person might have? If Bush isn’t quite in their league, aren’t we only quibbling about degree?
“Well, he violates human rights and causes the deaths of innocent civilians and throws away the lives of our troops, but there’s someone who is worse!”
This is the politics of tu quoque, and it will have reprocussions.
Considering that there are ACTUAL gulag’s AND death camps (with the optional gas chambers attached…and WITH the bonus 6+ figure death toll) in North Korea today, yet pointing that out generally gets a yawn and a hand wave…I’d say its a valid point. The US and the western world SHOULD be held to a higher standard…I agree completely. But not to the exclusion of all else or so completely and wildly over the top that the US is seen as the ultimate evil…while places in the world where real daily human suffering on a much higher scale is given a pass.
Basically what I see is that if its not America committing the atrocities its just not worth getting excited about…especially on this board and by many of the folks in this thread. If it IS America, then its time to bring out the foam and get worked up…hell folks come out of the wood work to rant about the US and how evil we are. And thats the REAL consequence of this kind of inflamatory rhetoric blasting the US for its supposed ‘gulag’ and death camps, blah blah blah…that it overly focus’s attention on the US while hand waving away REAL atrocities that are happening out there in the wider world. As I said in another thread on this subject, if the US basically tortured every person currently in captivity to death, then burned their bodies and pissed on the ashes it wouldn’t hold a candle to things going on today in hell holes like North Korea or the Sudan…to name just two such places. Again, thats not to say that the US should get a pass on torture and even murder…it shouldn’t. I’m just asking for a little perspective…I don’t think thats unreasonable. Obviously most folks in these parts disagree.
Not at all Xtisme. Well, at least I don’t disagree at all. I think that the situation in the Sudan, in North Korea, in Lebanon, etc… are all horrible things. But, I hope, you can forgive a bit of myopia on my part every now and again. I’m an American, and I’m a patriot, and I really do love my country. And I honestly think that we can and should be a guiding nation among the world community. Setting our house in order is one of my first priorities, not just because it means we’d be able to act in other places that much more easily, but because damnit, the promise of America is not supposed to be about indefinite imprisonment and 15 year old boys being raped and prisoners beaten to death… it’s just not.
Answer my question, you cowardly fuck. If I gave you a description of those practices and then asked whether they occurred in a Nazi concentration camp or an American prison, which would you have guessed?
Oh, not this tired old thing again. Look, if every single person in the US took to the streets denouncing human rights abuses in Korea… not one single goddamned thing would change over there. Kim Il Jong doesn’t care if his own people starve to death by the tens of thousands. He sure as fuck doesn’t care that a bunch of foreigners on the other side of the planet disapprove. Protesting human rights abuses in repressive dictatorships in other countries is simply stupid. It’s the sort of pointless, feel-good wankfest for which liberals are justly criticized. On the other hand, in a free, democratic society, protest can effect real change. Kim Il Jong doesn’t care what we think, but George Bush sure as fuck does. Doesn’t it make more sense to focus our efforts on the lesser evil we can rectify, than to waste our time on the greater evil we can’t possibly affect? I don’t think that shows a lack of perspective. Rather, I think it shows a commendable sense of economoy.
I said in the other thread that abuses at Guantanamo most closely resembled abuses at domestic American prisons, and that a comparison with death camps was hyperbolic.
I’m sticking by that assessment. Given what I understand conditions to be at both places, this seems fair and accurate.
Yeah you told me off…and you did it so well too. I’ve never seen ‘fuck off, asshole’ used so well. :wally
Now…is that REALLY what I said…or is your head so far up you own ass that you can’t read the monitor? I’m guessing the latter. Come back when you dig your head out and you actually have something to say better than ‘fuck off, asshole’, mkay?
How many threads have you started concerning torture and/or human righst abuses in Gitmo , or for that matter, any other of Bush’s concentration camps?
Tut-tut, sir – your choice of words reveals you to be yet another mindless “NAZI NAZI NAZI” bandier. You must apologize at once to newcrasher for your outrageous overstatement, sir!
The Nazis did not spring full-grown from the brow of Zeus as the comparative factor for all evil. One small step at a time, they grew to be that.
I will be pleased if by screaming bloody murder, the decent citizens of my country can prevent any further steps being taken. We do have a history of steps being taken down that road; every time our honor has swelled up in time to stop it. Let us again display our honor and our decency and bring this to a screeching halt. Now.
I know that you are aware that Nazi persecution of the Jews did not begin with the death camps. Some of the first steps were civil laws that discriminated against the Jews. They had curfews. They couldn’t marry non-Jews. They couldn’t shop in non-Jewish stores. Slowly their rights were taken away.
At what point did the torture begin? Does mental anguish count?
The Nazis did many things. We are torturing prisoners. Alpha dogs at the Defense Department have expressed concern about being vulnerable to being charged with war crimes. They know. What part of the puzzle is missing for you?
Would it take God descending on a cloud and speaking directly to you to convince you? Is George Bush the only person in the world that you will believe?
I am so non-concerned about Bush it is pitiful. He reminds me of the Peter Lorry character in Casablanca. I don’t think about him often enough to hate him. What I am concerned about is human rights and an end to torture.
Stop thinking that you are an authority on our motives. For you it may be all about politics. That doesn’t mean that that is true for the rest of us.
Durbin’s weakness disgusts me. The one parallel he was drawing was legitimate. That is behavior that was more typical of Nazis than of what I have expected of Americans. That is not part of our heritage.
Mr. Moto, is the prison the you spoke of where prisoners are tortured in this manner in operation today? That would truly be terrible. At least they have access to attorneys and the court systems. And they have been found guilty of something. I’m aware there is a problem with isolation.
All kidding aside. Fuck Bush and all of his mindless sycophants. Hell, fuck weasely Durbin while we’re at it. He war right to begin with.
Secondly, I am NOT an American. Thus I have no need/use for pussy-footing around the issue, nor do I have some sort of intrinisc duty to worship your troops. To me, they are simply individuals. Some good, some not so good, some insipid – with a heavy sprinkling of mindless drones trained to do the bidding for the ruling classes. They simply don’t know any better. Lost children.
As for what ‘issue’ you might ask? IMO, this whole propaganda campaign has given me more that a bit of insight into Goebbels mindset.
There, fuck Goodwin too. Just another scape clause to detract from the facts anyway.
The only good news I get from the US now a days is that there are still good number of people such as yourslef that are ready to fight The Regime every step of the way. For it is rather easy to fall into the hate-America mindset after your last election. Talk about a let-down; candy-assed democratic candidate included.
Best of luck to you all – I’m willing and able to help in any way I can.
Way too much at stake to allow apathy to take over.
Dick Durbin hasn’t anything to apologize for. He did it exactly right, the time to pull your punch is after you’ve bloodied your opponent’s face. It is George Bush who has brought disgrace the US by authorizing the use of torture and by holding people indefinitely without bringing charges or allowing legal representation. In fairness, the war crimes of Bush pale against those of Hitler or Stalin, but they don’t need to be as great in order for men of honor to be righteously outraged. Bush has forfeited the moral high ground and given it to the terrorists. Next to Bush, Durbin is a patriot of the first magnitude.
Yes, that’s pretty much exactly what you said. Let’s review:
Or, to paraphrase you: “Wah, wah, wah. These people just hate America so much and think we’re so evil, that’s the only reason they’re bringing the issue up.”
Which would be exactly your excuse if that happened someone wrote a Pit thread about it. “It’s not THAT bad. Why are all you liberals crying about this when horrible regimes do worse things every day? WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?”
You’re pathetic and morally bankrupt. People like you are how Nazis and Pol Pots get into power. Willing to excuse any action committed by their side and support them no matter what. You’re disgusting and don’t deserve to live in America.
What worries me is that he is already doing it, and we’re letting it happen.
Because there are people on this board that support the atrocities, perhaps? What’s the point of starting a debate about North Korean concentration camps? Who is going to step up to defend them? We are in agreement there, all of us.
Now, when it is American concentration camps, things are different. We disagree. Some people think it’s OK. Some people think it’s great. Some people think it’s horrible but necessary. That’s why we talk about the American camps and not about the North Korean ones.
You know, that’s the first thing some of us pre-adolescent junior high school pissing thugs actually said (in Mr. Moto’s thread on the matter). But thanks for deigning to show us how its done; I’m sure everyone on the other side of the debate will be stopped dead in their tracks. I have to go now, my hormones are making me crazy.
Frankly at times it bothers me more that the US hangs onto the image of itself as a kindly and decent society than do the actual documented and authorised abuses by employees of the US govt.
