I think both sides were behaving as ‘humans’ would. But I expect better out of people representing me.
Really, if human behavior was so high we wouldn’t need the concept of ‘protection of human rights’, would we? The expection established, by having those protections in writing, is that human beings, without outside controls placed on their behavior, will act as our barbarian ancestors did.
Again, I expect more from those playing on my side.
Milum, Milum, Milum… to paraphrase Hank Hill when he was addressing his niece LuAnne, Everytime I think that you have just said the most dumbass fucking thing you can say, you keep talking. (My apologies if that’s more appropriate for the Pit Thread, but there’s already one Milum PT and I don’t see the need for another.)
I see absolutely no contradiction in saying that I am against atrocities committed against Americans as well as atrocities committed by Americans.
I can also, while completely and 100% disagreeing with their motives and their poltiical and religious ideologies (remember shug, I’m a queerboy, or in ornithological terms an Alabama Rednecked Fudgepacker, a demographic that gets publicly beheaded in that area of the world- I really don’t have a whole lot of Fundamentalist Muslim sympathies) say that I think, if I were an Iraqi soldier, that the sudden presence of hundreds of thousands of foreign soldiers is a time I would probably fire my gun in anger. That’s what soldiers do, you see- they kill people. That’s why Bush didn’t send in the gang from American Idol and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir- there was going to be shooting, and those groups aren’t really trained for that (except maybe Fantasia who I’m guessing could stare down most attackers). Deaths were to be expected.
As for the “cowardly Iraqi terrorists basterds” (Milum conssistantly spel good), terrorists they might be (though I’d debate the term considering they are defending their own soil- geurillas would seem more appropriate) and ‘basterds [sic]’ they might be, but until the day that you go up against the greatest fighting force on Earth armed with 60 year old weapons and explosives and a conviction so strong (which is not to say it’s right, but so strong nonetheless) that you are willing to be blown apart for it, don’t call anybody a coward. (Do you consider Bama’s own John Hunt Morgan or Bama’s defender Nathan Bedford Forrest “cowardly terrorist basterds”, incidentally? If not, why not? They used some very similar tactics, quite brilliantly at times.)
Point of law and semantics: armed troops aren’t murdered in battle, they are killed. The Nazis murdered Jews, they killed American troops on D-Day. No, this isn’t really saying that the troops on D-Day had it coming, but battledeaths are different from regular murder. If they’re not, then how many Iraqis have we “murdered”? Has any Iraqi ever personally done you harm? If not, then how can you say they deserved to die, but American troops killed in action are murdered?
That said, the death of American civilians, horrible as it is (and I do mean that- I have a former student I care about and several friends-in-law over there and I hope they have the most boring Tour of Duty ever recorded) was an act of war. Yes, they were civilians- they were also being escorted by armed persons in a nation they knew was hostile. The mutilation of their bodies was a basterdly thing, but it occurred after they were dead. It was not torture. You see, dead people don’t feel any pain- it’s a physiology thing.
Now I know what you’re thinking: “I saw on this documentiary where ol’ Brendan Fraser got hissef chased all round ol’ ainshun Egypt by a dead ol’ Fayro or sumtinlikedat and when he got to hittin on that dead Ayrab he felt it”, but that was just a movie called The Mummy. It weren’t real.
Why am I more sickened by the atrocities committed in Abu Ghraib? Several reasons:
1- It was done by MY people, Americans- people who were NOT surrounded by 360 degrees of fanaticism their entire lives- people who were NOT exposed to carnage and rape on a daily basis until they were desensitized- they are supposed to know better. (If this sounds racist, I’m sorry, but I don’t revoke the sentiment.)
2- It was done to people who were living and had already been rendered completely helpless. The guards were in no immediate danger from these men, yet they willfully humiliated and abused them physically, sexually and emotionally.
3- You think what happened to the troops yesterday was bad? I think it’s next to nothing compared to what’s going to happen to every American & American sympathizer they can catch now that they have this absolutely wonderful propaganda courtesy of Ms. England and the “private contractors” and the other soldiers. We are talking about a tribal society where blood and indignity demands blood and indignity, where a father was recently forced to kill his own son for the aid he gave to American forces, where our troops are outnumbered thousands-to-one and moderate or even American-friendly Muslims can now be silenced with a picture.
“school boy pranks”
I have to see that written out again to believe it…
"school boy pranks"
I have many complaints against the Alabama educational system and I’ll admit I had the hell bullied out of me in school as a queer and a general misfit, but I must admit I was never stripped naked and forced at gunpoint to simulate sex on other misfits. Just where did you go to school, Milum? How common was object rape at your school, Milum? If your son came home after being forced to plant his face over the dick of another bound classmate while substitute teachers pointed laughing and the yearbook photographer snapped pictures but the school principal was denied access, would you say “aw hell, boys’ll be boys”. This isn’t a schoolboy prank- those don’t generally involve guns, nudity, sodomy and terror.
Milum, my little buttmuffin, do you really think there’s anybody on this board who believes you can count?
Rambling response from Milum to include non-sequiturs about “at least where I went to school people weren’t rude” and something about me loving Clinton in
5…
4…
3…
2…
Thank you Johnathan, I, for one, will forgive you of your antiquated chauvinism, because in this case your chauvinism reflects the truth.
Now… who else among you out there will stand up and sign on to this truth.
May God bless our mission in Iraq.
Some bitter and small minded person might suggest that the mission is so badly screwed up now that Divine Blessing is our best chance. You got a direct line to the Almighty, friend?
I don’t think it’s ‘chauvinism’. More like I know what I can and can’t do. And I can’t expect them to behave better as I have no hold on them. I sure as shit CAN expect US soldiers to behave better. At a minimum I can vote their commanders out of office and expect the soldiers themselves to be tried or handed over to the Hague.
And I’m curious…after these revelations do you believe that God would WANT to bless this mission?
Milum, why don’t you do the world a favor and just shut up?
You have reached the Lord God Almighty. I’m not at my desk right now, but your call is important to me…
May "your" God bless this mission... I'd rather see some rationality and logic instead. I agree with much of what Chance said. (The Mummy ?!) I think your wrong Milum... as usual.Why on earth would any particular mythical deity, except maybe Satan, bless a “mission” that includes officially-sanctioned abuse of helpess prisoners?
Yes ** Gelding **I do have a direct line to the Almighty.
But I don’t make the rules so there is still hope for you too.
Just fill out this form and wait a few years until Armageddon.
(1) I agree with Sampiro; the mistreatment of the Iraqis prisoners by the American MP’s was the worst thing that has happened to this world since the Muslim extremists killed 3000 innocent Americans on September 11, 2001.
Yes No
(2) I agree with Johnathan Chance that by the luck of being raised in a free country we Americans should be held to a higher moral standard than those whose cultural traditions are antiquated and bankrupt.
Yes No
(I will see that your answers get to the proper people.)
And as for your question Johnathan Chance…“And I’m curious…after these revelations do you believe that God would WANT to bless this mission?”
Do you Johnathan, really think that a just God would have his people to continue to live under the boot of tyrany in abject poverty than for them to be healthy and free?
There are no other options…name one.
Not to jump in in Jonathan’s place or anything, but looking at the span of human history, it would seem that oppression and tyranny are pretty much the norm. Either we have been left to our own devices (that whole free will business), there is no god (my personal theory) or god must want for us to be oppressed.
There are no other options…name one
Let’s change the questions:
(1) I agree with Sampiro; the mistreatment of the Iraqis prisoners by the American MP’s makes Americans look hypocritical.
Yes No
(2) If you say you are following God’s view of liberating the world… that you therefore should be held to a higher standard.
Yes No
There are always options…
So now back to should CBS have hidden the photos…
… so back to the photos. CBS at worst could have kept the fotos out of view and REPORTED the tortures. The images do have a stronger effect than “NEWS” only.
Actually it would have been funny to see people accusing CBS of making it up and demanding they prove their alegations.Nah, that ain’t gonna happen. If one place runs them, even overseas, then EVERYONE is going to run them.
My quote was
Which was:
a. entirely subjective (hence the word ME
b. not synonymous with “worst thing that has happened to the world”
c. not even a debatable point
I honestly don’t think that I could be accused of an ad-hom attack when I say that to derive the one from the other you are either a malicious liar or, to borrow a phrase from Fish Called Wanda, “either congenitally insane or irretrievably stupid”, or some combination thereof. Let’s let the voters decide:
I agree that Milum is a malicious liar
Yes No
I agree that Milum is a irretrievably stupid
Yes No
I agree that Milum is congenitally insane
Yes No
I agree that Milum is some combination of the above
Yes No
Ralph Nader
Yes No
Yes [X ] No
I would tend to agree with Sampiro in away because I also believe that means should justify the ens and not the other way around. The ultimate effects and outcome of any actions should be carefully weighed especially in such sensitive situations where the outcome put lives of people in risk of death. This situation is very different from a political scandal like Watergate or issues of corruption, and so has to be dealt wih in a manner consistet with its severity. It is perfectly fine and right to believe in the freedom of the press but like anything else it cannot be taken as absolute. If that freedom leads to grave danger and is likely to be catastrophic to society at large, and if suppression of that freedom can avoid that, the latter is obviously the option to choose. Of course, the correction of mistakes and delivering punishment commensurate with the crime, to the erring people should be pursued simultaneously, and proper checks and procedures should be ensured that never ever can something like this be repeated.
Without photographs, nothing would have happened. There have been verbal reports about abuses at coalition-run prisons for a long time. In June 2003, Amnesty International wrote:
Increased hatred towards USA and its allies is a bad thing. But I see continued, unchecked torture and other abuses committed by USA and its allies as worse. So, even if it had been possible to keep this hidden (and I agree that it wasn’t), publishing the photographs was the right thing to do. Now, at least, some of the abuses by coalition soldiers will stop. For a while. At Abu Ghraib. (I’m not making any bets about conditions at other prisons, except I’m sure cameras are being confiscated in a lot of places right now.)
Sampiro
[Moderator Hat ON]
Sampiro, do NOT do this. Insults may not be phrased in the form of a question, either.
[Moderator Hat OFF]
My apologies. A momentary lapse of judgement due to a heated issue- a first and last offense (well, outside the Pit).