Did 85% of liberals support the invasion of Afghanisan?

[Malodorous]

@Mr. Moto

I didn’t mean to kick this into debate territory, just that it is clear that there was some small minority of liberals that opposed the invasion of Afghanistan. This petition certainly does, and about 700,000 people signed it.

I supported the invasion and would’ve probably signed that petition if it had been put to me. Hell Cheney probably would’ve signed that.

But in anycase, I’m sure there were some hard pacifist liberal groups that opposed the invasion. Quakers and the like, so I agree with your premise that some liberal groups were against the invasion, if not your evidence for it.

On preview: toadspittle, that email seems to be against using violence in retaliation for 9/11. That isn’t what happened, we invaded to capture Osama and break up Al-Queda.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@toadspittle

Not totally “Don’t Invade Afghanistan.” More like “Don’t kill innocent civilians in the process of hunting down Bin Laden.” But could easily be interpreted as anti-invasion.

An impression that MoveOn was quick to deny. This is part of a response from Wes Boyd and Joan Blades (the founders of MoveOn) in their own words to a column written by Peter Beinart in New Republic:

Beinart is simply wrong to state that MoveOn opposed the war in Afghanistan against the Taliban and Al Qaeda. We did urge that retaliation be targeted at military bases and at those who attacked us, believing that excessive military force, if not limited to terrorist camps, could lead to unnecessary civilian death and suffering and further fan the flames of terrorism.

We are keenly aware of the need for vigilance against terrorism after September 11. To accuse us of indifference to this is pure fabrication. We do not, as Beinart implies, minimize the threats we face, nor are we hostile to U.S. power or its use to counter real dangers. Security must be a guiding principle for Democrats and all Americans. We want our children safe, our homes and offices secure, and terrorism defeated.

We agree that American military force must be available as an option for responding to very real threats to our security that exist now and surely will in the future. Military force is not the only answer, however. This is a philosophy that drove our view on Iraq, where our signature campaign pulled together a broad coalition of individuals and organizations to support inspections not war.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Mr. Moto

It is simply more proof that not all liberals supported the Afghanistan invasion. But since we knew that already, not a really big deal.

No, it’s proof of nothing. Your assertion was erroneous. Just admit it. It won’t kill you.

[sqweels]

And I didn’t ask about MoveOn.org or any other individual or organization (except the Democratic Party).

I’m asking whether a majority of liberals (let alone progressives, moderates, or centrists) supprted Operation Enduring Freedom, which would give a lie to a certain all-too-familar line of criticism.

[Mr.Moto]

MoveOn scrubbed this petition from their website after the invasion began - I have been using archived copies in debates since.

Additionally, Peter Beinert is pretty liberal himself, though one who has been strongly urging his fellow liberals to take a more realistic view of the world and the role of military action in it.

I don’t think for one second that I am wrong. I think it far more likely that MoveOn is trying to distance themselves from that petition (without actually disavowing it, of course) since close association with that kind of attitude toward war will in fact hurt Democratic candidates pretty badly.

Anyway, not a topic of conversation for this particular forum. I’ll not discuss it further here.

But I’m right.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

The peteition did not oppose the invasion of Afghanistan. You were wrong. Just admit it.

[John_Mace]

@sqweels

And I didn’t ask about MoveOn.org or any other individual or organization (except the Democratic Party).

I’m asking whether a majority of liberals (let alone progressives, moderates, or centrists) supprted Operation Enduring Freedom, which would give a lie to a certain all-too-familar line of criticism.

How are you defining “liberals”? It’s certainly true that a majority of “liberals” in Congress supported the invasion (see my first post). Surely there are more than 2 liberals in that august body…

[Mr.Moto]

@sqweels

And I didn’t ask about MoveOn.org or any other individual or organization (except the Democratic Party).

I’m asking whether a majority of liberals (let alone progressives, moderates, or centrists) supprted Operation Enduring Freedom, which would give a lie to a certain all-too-familar line of criticism.

Majority or minority, in the case of MoveOn you might have to contend with this petition due to their prominence.

[Mr.Moto]

@Diogenes the Cynic

The peteition did not oppose the invasion of Afghanistan. You were wrong. Just admit it.

Pardon me, but I do not browbeat you when you are wrong. And that is quite often, my friend.

Frankly, this is quite abusive, and does not allow for honest differences of opinion.

You’re a better man than that.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@sqweels

And I didn’t ask about MoveOn.org or any other individual or organization (except the Democratic Party).

I’m asking whether a majority of liberals (let alone progressives, moderates, or centrists) supprted Operation Enduring Freedom, which would give a lie to a certain all-too-familar line of criticism.

Right. Sorry for the digression.

Polling data from the time in question seems to be kind of difficult to find online, but I do remember that numbers in excess of 90% were the norm for the country as a whole, including all prominent Democrats. I have no doubt that the 85% figure for self-described “liberals” is accurate. Hopefully somebody will be able to find an archive poll.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Mr. Moto

Majority or minority, in the case of MoveOn you might have to contend with this petition due to their prominence.

The petition did not say what you’re claiming it said.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Mr. Moto

Pardon me, but I do not browbeat you when you are wrong. And that is quite often, my friend.

If I’m ever proven factually wrong (which is exceedingly rare), I admit it.

Frankly, this is quite abusive, and does not allow for honest differences of opinion.

You’re a better man than that.

I don’t believe this is a difference of opinion. You made a claim that MoveOn was “prominent” in supporting an effort “not to go to Afghanistan.” That is simply not true. They SUPPORTED going to Afghanistan and the founders made that clear in their own words. At most, they had a difference of opinion with you about how to prosecute the action in Afghanistan but it is factually false – not a difference of opinion – to say that they opposed going there at all. They never said any such thing.

And I am NOT a better man that that.

[John_Mace]

@Diogenes the Cynic

If I’m ever proven factually wrong (which is exceedingly rare), I admit it.

Dude, this is GQ remember.

[sqweels]

@Mr. Moto

Majority or minority, in the case of MoveOn you might have to contend with this petition due to their prominence.

If MoveOn sends me a petition complaining about something I did or didn’t do, I’ll contend with it.

[Mr.Moto]

In any case, if I’m mistaken it is because of the wording of a petition that also had Peter Beinert fooled, if MoveOn is to be trusted here.

Hmmm. Beinert’s a sharp guy. I’ll go along with him on this.

[Ravenman]

Ahem. Back to the question at hand, here is a poll that says that in the first week of November 2001, 86% of Americans supported invading Afghanistan, and 11% opposed. (See Question 5) It isn’t broken down by political views or party affiliation, though it’s pretty common to collect that data, so it is certainly available from Gallup, and may or may not be found on the Internets. I cannot track it down myself.

[Frank]

@Diogenes the Cynic

To voice public disapproval of going to Afghanistan at the time was to be seen as a nutcase and possibly as a terrorist.

The same was true of the invasion of Iraq, yet many more spoke up against that. The Afghanistan invasion was viewed by most as a direct and appropriate response to the Taliban’s refusal to hand over bin Laden. 85% of liberals in support? I couldn’t say for certain, but it doesn’t seem far off. This one did. Also, the U.S. received wide and deep support from other, more liberal, countries that wouldn’t touch the Iraq invasion with a ten foot pole.

[The_Hamster_King]

@toadspittle

There were vanishingly few people who opposed the initial invasion.

I did. At the time I thought it would lead to a Vietnam-style quagmire. My reasoning was that if the Soviet Union could not sustain an occupation with their much shorter supply chain, neither could we.

I’ve changed my opinion in the intervening years. But the 85% number doesn’t surprise me at all. I felt like I was pretty much out in the wilderness back in 2001.

[PBear42]

My take on this is similar to Pochacco’s. Here, in one of the most liberal cities in the nation, I was the only person I knew who thought invading Afghanistan was wrong. (Why, I’ll save for GD and another day.) So, the 85% figure seems to me, as Diogenes said, if anything low.

[zut]

Here’s some actual information rather than speculation.

The bottom line: Two weeks after the attacks, 84% of self-described liberals supported “military action” against the terrorists and 75% supported “going to war with a nation that is harboring those responsible.”