Did 9/11 prevent widespread looting in the 8/14/3 black out?

On the news, I haven’t heard about any real big looting except for some arrests in Brooklyn (IIRC) and some bigger stuff in Ottowa. Otherwise, I’m getting the impression that most black out victims have been notably civil and civic during the affair.

Do you think that 9/11 is still large enough in everybody’s minds to prompt such good behavior, or do you think it is something else, or do you think that is how people would normally react and that the looting/rioting/violence image is just overblown hype?

I don’t know if the two are truly related. I have a feeling that looting was minimal this time around for a couple of reasons. Obviously, the large number of cops called out to help maintain order would have had a chilling effect. But the city on the whole was a much different place than it was back in 1977, even before 9/11. The 70s was a really bad time for New Yorkers, especially financially, and I think that encouraged the looting at that time. More than 20 years down the pike, however, quality of life in the city has taken a real turnaround, and there haven’t been any causes for social unrest recently. Even if 9/11 hadn’t happened, I don’t think large numbers of people would have been criminally inclined in today’s NYC.

That said, 9/11 was definitely the trial-by-fire for people learning how to cope under difficult circumstances. I think that’s why the exodus of folks last night was so orderly and peaceful, for the most part. It was a major inconvenience, to be sure, but in the absence of fear everyone just did what they had to, and helped others out along the way.

My first two thoughts about the blackout that came to mind when I read the first brief news bulletins yesterday:

  1. It’s a terrorist attack (soon ruled out)
  2. Detroit is going to be in flames tonight (didn’t happen … so far)

Call me morbid, but I REALLY thought there would be riots, fires and looting overnight in Detroit. There was not.

Why not? Was 9/11 also responsible for curbing civil unrest in Detroit? I can see the possibility that 9/11 contributed to the civilness in NYC, but not in Detroit.

Was there a super-abundance of cops out in force in Detroit last night, or has the human race surprised this cynical S.O.B. by NOT reverting to its savage roots (for whatever reason)?

It was a party atmosphere. People were crossing the Brooklyn Bridge with smiles, cameraderie, and good spirit. it was fun, until you remembered the people stuck in the subways and the elevators. Most people didn’t.

I’m sure that in all of this, there’s a Gray Davis joke just waiting to be told. :smiley:

I think so. People realized that after 9/11, they have to stick together and work together. However, I did notice store owners taking stuff out of their store windows.

It was probably just too damn hot and muggy to go lugging a TV around on your back.

The folks on the evening news certainly thought so. One reporter even said (I’m paraphrasing) that at one time a massive blackout was the worst thing New Yorkers could imagine. Then came 9/11. 8/14 is a picnic in comparison, and people were more interested in getting together than only looking out for number one.

Re: Detroit and lack of riots: Last time Detroit had big riot problems was the late 60’s/early 70’s. It was a city of about 1.2 million (if I recal correctly) with a great deal of civil unrest and a large black underclass that felt they had no control and no representation in government or police forces.

Here we are in 2003. Detroit’s population is down to around 600,000 in the city proper - it’s about half the size it was. No recent civil unreast. The politics have been dominated by blacks for over 20 years. The police force is fully integrated and it’s members reflect the community porportions of various ethnic groups, more or less.

Less crowding, more sense of people having a stake in the game despite continued poverty. Less chance of riots. That’s my theory, at least.

The whole 9/11 thing as comparison: Yes, I think past experience counts.

During 9/11 people were under attack - meaning it wasn’t just a random accident but human beings actively trying to kill other human beings. This resulted in a LOT of fear and stress. Also, folks didn’t know what to do - how do you get home from Manhattan if the trains and buses aren’t running? On 9/11 folks had to learn how to cope with that on the fly, many probably never having considered the possibility of the transit systems being completely disabled.

During the blackout - well, at the time folks were probably thinking maybe it was terror and maybe it wasn’t. But, in any case, having evacuated their office buildings less than two years ago under dreadful conditions, they already knew how to get out this time and proceeded to do so. The fact that no buildings were burning or, worse yet, falling down, debris and human bodies raining from the sky, and so forth the stress level was problably much, much less in NYC at least. If the only thing wrong is a lack of power that’s not really that bad - with rare exception it’s not an immediate threat to life and limb, unlike a collapsing building or two.

For the past two years, fire drills and other emergency exercises in other cities in the US have been taken MUCH more seriously. Again, when the power went out folks already knew and had practiced how to get out of office buildings and such. I’m sure this helped other places. Likewise, police and fire response might have been better coordinated. I heard that in a lot of places police were automatically delpyed to various areas to secure them and prevent problems.

Between Y2K (remember Y2K?) and 9/11, we’ve been a little more serious about contingency planning than we used to be. In additions to businesses have better back-ups for data than a decade ago and emergency generators, and folks at home having emergency kits made/stocked, there was much less need for panic buying of things like flashlights. Because people have beeng thinking about “what if?” a little more, they were, on average, a little better prepared to cope with the unexpected.

But, very significantly, 9/11 WAS a change in national attitudes towards widespread emergencies. It used to be that “plane crash” was almost at the very high end of Bad Things That Can Happen. Then we had four of them in less than a single hour. And they weren’t accidents, they were delibrately engineered catastrophes and that morning we didn’t know how many more such there might be. In other words - the worst had happened four time over and there might be more coming. And that was even before the building collapses - two MORE “worst case” catastrophes. And the collapse of part of another building. All before lunch.

Then, in November of that year Flight 587 crashed after takeoff in NYC. I remember the talking heads saying “It appears to be just a plane crash”. JUST a plane crash? That phrase would have been unthinkable in that form only a few months prior. But they were right - it WAS “just a plane crash”. An accident. The Bad Thing happened and all that was left was the aftermath, we weren’t looking at a series of Bad Things occuring over the course of single morning.

Our yardstick for measuring disasters has changed.

Accidents are no longer the worst of all possible evils - an accident happens and is done, and you clean up as best you can. They are, by nature, limited in time and space (although they can be quite large, yes). Now, a delibrate attack - they can be as bad as the worst conceivable accident but they can also keep coming at you so you wind up dealing with one horrific thing after another.

A black out, when you get down to it, is mostly inconvenience. Yes, there will probably be a few deaths to come out of this, just as with a bad storm like a blizzard or hurricaine. Unlike a terrorist attack, though, no one is being targeted for death and for the most part, if you use your head, you won’t be in any real danger. You can’t control the lack of power, but you have a lot of say in how you cope with it. People are less likely to panic or do stupid things (like riot) when they feel they have some control.

I think it was a Frontline episode that I watched a while ago where the topic was cyber-terrorism. It started with fairly dire warnings about how much damage a cyber-terrorist could do by, say, getting into the power grid and cutting off power to 50 million people. Then later in the program they showed pieces of interviews with skeptics (for lack of a better word), one of whom described cyber-terrorism of that sort as “weapons of mass annoyance”.

Thanks for the input, everybody.

broomstick, though most of your post re: Detroit was spot on, the population of the city itself is actually still well over 900,000. 2000 was the first year it dipped under a million. You are right though. it’s about half what it was in 1950 when the cities pop. peaked at about 1.8 million.

Well, I did waffle on my ability to recollect the population correctly… :slight_smile:

Having lived in the area from 1971 through 1983 I saw many of the changes up front and personal.

Yeah, we’re finding first hand which of the “experts” are pollyanas and which are cassandras… personally, disaster is one area where I’d prefer to leave hypotheses untested.

I think it may be possible to construct senarios where a sudden black out could result in a real disaster rather than “mass annoyance” but it would require considerable planning and timing.

Or, if you combined a “weapons of mass annoyance” such as a blackout with a more blatantly aggressive move you might increase the effect of a terror attack. For example, if Al Quaeda had been able to engineer a blackout of the size of the recent one in the same area THEN crashed the planes into the WTC news of that terror attack may not have gone out on the airwaves at all that morning, and thus no warning could have been given to the passengers on Flight 93 who might have meekly continued sitting, thinking it a “conventional” highjacking, instead of (we think) disrupting the Flight 93 attack suffuciently to put the plane in cornfield instead of an inhabited and important building. It also might have been, had there been a massive blackout at the time, ATC would have been disrupted to the point that the “all planes land NOW” order would never have been given, allowing even more teams of highjackers to cause more havoc.

Scary, isn’t it? 9/11 was NOT the worst of all possible worlds…

A blackout is mostly an annoyance. A blackout combined with a terror attack would be… really really awful.