What you seem to be implying, here, is that the potential consequences of giving the inspectors more time (ie, Saddam completes nasty weapons and uses them, either as weapons or as threats) are comparable to the potential consequences of giving the administration more time (ie, you have to wait longer for the satisfaction of knowing all the facts). Of course, I must be mistaken, because that’s completely and undeniably stupid. So please, enlighten me - what were you implying?
Jeff
Well, now, just a second here, Jeff. GeeDubya didn’t say Saddam might be making WMD’s. He said Saddam had WMD’s and further, that there was a real and immediate threat that he would either a) use them on us by way of his intercontinental drone aircraft or b) hand them over to terrists.
Further, he insisted that he had proof postive, no doubts, no shadows, no questions. Proof positive that he has yet to share with us, or anyone else, for that matter. Some of that proof that we have had the opportunity to examine has proved to be the utterest crap. Intelligence offered, albeit grudgingly, to the inspectors also proved empty.
So it is a bit more than simply the “satisfaction of knowing all the facts”. It is the question of truth. I am, I have no hesitation in stating, very reluctant to be led into war. But I’m damned if I will consent to being bullshitted into war!
There’s a simpler explanation for the lack of WMD that seems to be getting short shrift by the administration. Perhaps Saddam did destroy his WMD in response to the sanctions, and was thus telling the truth when he said he had none. Occam’s razor suggests that, without evidence to back up an elaborate wartime weapons destruction scheme, this is the best theory.
Elucidator,
You seem fixated lately on the intercontinental drone aircraft. Do you have any cites where someone claimed that Iraq had any? All I remember is some reports that said that Iraq might have some drone aircraft whose range exceeded the limitations set in the cease fire agreement.
It's fairly ingenuous to fixate on a drone aircraft anyways. All a nation with biological or chemical weapons needs to wreak havoc is a handful of agents with easily concealed and smuggleable aerosols.Not to hijack or anything but oddly enough (sarcasm) one of the other countries cited in the Axis of Evil is truly known to have WMDs of the worst kind (nuclear), has actually admitted as much (almost boasted), is known to consort with terrorists, is developing long range missles capable of reaching the US (only alaska and Hawaii for now presumably) and exports weapons and which thus far has essentially been ignored by the Bush administration.
Dubya’s stated motivation to go after Iraq was their possession of WMDs then his stance towards North Korea seems to belie his reasons. I understand North Korea is an entirely different can of worms but nevertheless if Dubya has the strength of his convictions such that he’ll spend $80 billion and many lives to nail Saddam then he should have a similar view towards North Korea. That so far he doesn’t seem to says to me that the WMD story was a convenient scare tactic to bullshit (to borrow from elucidator) the American public into going to war.
The jury is still out and I will give it some more time but I become more pessimistic every day. I was somewhat to begin with I’ll admit but the administration assured the American public that they had evidence (not just concerns) that Saddam possessed WMDs. If they had this evidence then surely by now they could have told someone somewhere to go get the stuff and show it to the world.
To paraphrase Winston Churchill I am beginning to think that George Bush is an asshole wrapped in piousness inside a bullshit artist.
Jeff. I wasn’t implying any such thing. I was trying to flat-out say that giving the administration more time to find the WoMD is ingenuous. The Bush administration ran poor Hans Blix’s ass all over the desert. And their info was bullshit. It was useless. It was supposition.
Now that the administration has control of the country, it should be a rather easy task to use their secret info to find the WoMD that they knew about only weeks ago.
I still say that dowsing is the answer to find all those buried WoMD.
:rolleyes:
Finagle, it isnt so much a fixation as a kind of personal favorite. It didn’t make big news, but it was GeeDubya answering the (perfectly reasonable) question of who cares what Saddam’s got if he can’t get it here. Now, I’m not that much of a Googlemeister, but I re-read it several times so as to be sure I wasn’t just seeing things. If it comes down to protecting my pristine honor and reputation, I could go to the trouble. On the other hand, you could take my word for it: I don’t bluff.
Besides, after that “uranium forgery” fiasco (which broke after this “drone” thingy), can you seriously be looking to defend these people’s “credibility”?
You should be ashamed of yourself for offering this comments in Great Debates. First, of course, there is no showing that Mr. Bush lied at all. More to the point, of course, the impeachment of Mr. Clinton arose from his lies under oath - a federal criminal offense. Even if we accepted that Mr. Bush lied, the lie would not be a federal crime.
I am less than thrilled about the state of WMD affairs. Even though no compelling evidence was brought forward publicly, I supported - with reservations - the government’s actions. I believed that either the evidence would come out, or the weapons themselves would be discovered.
I understood that if, perhaps, a crucial intel source was being protected, the evidence needed to be kept secret, lest we reward a friend with death. But now the Iraqi government is not in position to do that. And we’re still not seeing anything.
I am patient. I can wait months, even. But I won’t forget this and let it slide.
I say all this only to suggest that my distaste at the irrelevant partisan swipe offered by Frostillicus is not fuelled by party loyalty. My ire is based on the fact that it adds nothing to the debate, it is a false analogy, and promotes ignorance.
- Rick
In all seriousness – is lying about the justification for bringing the country into war sufficient reason for a charge of treason? I’m not completely certain of what the relevant legal standards are.
I don’t think the drone aircraft Iraq had were anywhere near capable of intercontinental flight. Even the US is still working on such a beast and I think it is safe to assume the US has a better shot at making one work than Iraq. However, Israel certainly did seem to be within range and its likely intended target. It wasn’t just UAVs either but also RPVs (remotely piloted vehicles). CITE: Washington Post
I’m interested in this too. I’m starting another thread here in GD to address this question so as not to hijack this one. Look for it very soon.
TVAA, in all seriousness, I can’t think of a more impeachable offense than sending fellow citizens to die for nothing.
We’ll see what comes out. I’m waiting, but I’m not hopeful. They’ve already been proven wrong in re the inspectors, as luc has repeatedly pointed out; if they can’t find anything when they have complete control of the country, then expecting the inspectors to find anything in the short time given was unbelievably obnoxious, and that’s putting it mildly.
From obnoxious to impeachable is a very big gap, but if nothing is found, that gap will be filled. Not that I expect our craven Congress to do anything about it.
Did everyone forget about all the statue bashing, shoe thumping marathon that happened a week ago? Did Anyone see that mass of unmarked graves, documents of tortures, stacks of unburied coffins with bodies that were shot in the head? Did anyone see the stark difference of the lifetyles of the Saddam loyalists as opposed to everyone else? Anyone wanna comment on the couple of tons of US currency stashed in a wall while hospitals complain of lack of medicine from before the war? Would someone like to guess how much it took to build those several opulant palaces in Baghdad and all across Iraq? and how much did it actually cost to buy up all of those stores of munitions, tanks and suicide vests and chemical suits and antiaircraft guns and missiles?
If bush made a mistake about those WoMd, is Iraq really worse off for it?
Bush’s remarks on Iraqi drones (2/6/03):
Text of Bush Speech
This thread contains a bit of discussion of the threat.
I don’t live in Iraq.
If they posed no threat to us, the only people in the world who should be concerned about whether or not Iraq is free are - the Iraqis. Secondarily, perhaps, other Arabs, if they’re so inclined.
That has nothing to do with us in our role as public citizens.
Privately, we can choose to be active through Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, or whatever. But if they weren’t a threat to us, it was not worth the life of one single American soldier.
Yeah, thats about right. Not intercontinental drones, but one launched from the deck of the Aircraft Carrier Saddam.
So, what your’e now setting up is the same crappola that the Admin is. Since there are no WoMD forthcoming, then we need to change our line. I know, let’s tell 'em that Iraq is better off without Saddam. That will justify the whole operation.
Yes, Iraq is better off without Saddam. I don’t think you’ll find many people to disagree with that. He was horrible. So are a few other bad guys in the world today.
When July comes, and there ain’t any proof of WoMd, I hope that elucidator or I (or any others) have the memory to rub some noses in that stinkpile that keeps getting smellier every day.
You need to apply basic logic. It doesn’t require any stretch of the imagination.
The French sold Saddam a Breeder reactor. Or restated, the French sold the nation containing the largest energy reserves, a nuclear powered electrical plant. The only purpose for spending billions of dollars on a nuclear power plant when you have an unending source of cheap energy, is to produce weapons grade plutonium.
That was PRIOR to the first gulf war. Since then the inspectors have film of the Iraqis driving specialized trucks out the back door of a suprise inspection location. It was determined by the inspectors that these trucks were mobile labs to create nuclear material. It is logical to assume the original task of building a nuclear weapon was never abandoned.
Saddam used nerve gas (a WMD) on a large scale durring 2 separate events. He not only had the knowledge to make the WMD, they WERE made and they WERE used. They have found scud missiles (which he said he didn’t have) with empty chemical warheads (which he said he didn’t have). It is logical to assume that he stll has possession of the gas to load on the missles we already found.
The chief of his nuclear program defected and stated that Saddam had a nuclear weapon BEFORE the start of the first gulf war. He did not have the capacity to mount it on a missle. Unless this person is lying (very possible) it is logical to assume that Saddam still has this hidden somewhere. It may already be in the hands of Al Quida. Won’t the French feel stupid if angry Algerian muslims decide life in France is not worth living and light off one really large fire cracker.
Bin Laden declared a holy war on the United States because we had troups in Saudi Arabia. We had troups in Saudi Arabia because we were babysitting Kuwait. The only way to get out of the region is to eliminate the reason we are there. To this end the war was logical.
Can we succeed in establishing some form of democratic republic in Iraq? I don’t know. Personally, I think the whole lot of them are socially unstable. it will be like releasing a prison full of delinquint children and then hoping they grow up before they kill each other off.
Its probably more like a trial balloon. Send out some unnamed source to hint at maybe we won’t find anything. See if any real outrage is stirred up amongst the loyalists. They could give a shit what I think, or people like me think. But if somebody like John McCain goes ballistic, they can back track and deny everything, and go back to thier schtick about “well, its gonna take time, we’re sure they’re there, but its gonna be a while, meantime lets run that tape of the statue falling and Iraqis kissing our soldiers a few hundred more times…”
McCain’s sent up a trial balloon of his own:
If that were the case, then the decent thing would be to publicly acknowledge the error and issue a contrite apology to the vast majority of nations across the world who opposed the war and the untold thousands of Iraqis whose family members lost their lives in the war.
I ain’t holding my breath on that kind of decency.