Did Caesar deserve it?

Three questions:

1.) If you had been a prominent Roman citizen at the time of Julius Caesar’s assassination, and the conspirators had approached you, would you have joined the conspiracy? Betrayed it? Or done nothing? Assume, for the sake of argument, that you have no knowledge of the future, and you genuinely care for the welfare of the Republic - you’re trying to make the right decision, not just the one that will best serve your own interests.

2.) Now, from a historical perspective - would Rome have been better off if Caesar survived? Would it still have transitioned into the Imperial system?

3.) Perhaps this is a fuzzier question, but - did Caesar deserve to be assassinated? Did his conduct in Rome’s civil war mark him out as a mad dog who needed to be put down, or were his hands no bloodier than those of most great men of his day?

Discuss! Debate!

My own answers:

1.) I would have betrayed the conspirators in a heartbeat, and cheered to see them on the cross. :smiley: The last decades of the Roman Republic were a litany of civil war and economic crisis - the Republic simply didn’t work, from its bizarrely bifurcated consular system to the rapacious, chaotic gluttony of the proconsuls. A more ordered system was required, and Caesar set the stage for that.

2.) I think that, absent a strongman of Caesar’s talents, Rome would have collapsed within another few decades. The great thing about Caesar was that he had enough political and institutional savvy, unlike Sulla, to stay in power without spilling blood by the wagonload. Besides which - without Caesar, there could have been no Augustus, and there was a man who knew how to build stable institutions (which the Republic had sorely lacked). Without Caesar, I suspect we’d have seen a string of inept, bloody-minded strongmen like Sulla.

3.) Did Caesar have it coming? Heck, no - compared to Sulla, he was an angel among men. Even by more reasonable standards, it’s hard to point to anything he did and say “this merited death”.

You violated your own rules, by stressing that Caesar set the stage for a more ordered system :). In point of fact Caesar was a tyrant and if you had “the welfare of the Republic” as your primary goal, well…Caesar was no republican. You can’t support him AND the ( largely moribund, if not completely dead ) Republic. An idealist would oppose Caesar and hope to reform the system.

I’m not typically an idealist ;). But it’s hard to say what I’d do in such a situation.

Better off? Probably not in any meaningful sense - Augustus was in his own way every bit as capable.

Imperial? Absolutely.

If you were an loyal son of the Republic and an idealist? Absolutely. There is no getting around the fact that he was a usurping tyrant.

Oh, no worse than some. But who’s to say they didn’t all deserve to snuff it :p?

Well, yeah, but he did spill blood by the bucketload as his numerous “Republican” opponents on the battlefield could attest.

ahem Tyrant. :smiley:

The real issue is how he treated poor Servilia. Hell hath no fury and all that.

:wink:

Three words: Sic semper tyrannis.

And you can quote me on that!

Wasn’t he getting ready to go off and fight the Parthians, to get the silver eagles that they took off Marcus Crassus?

I think that war was delayed a few years. What would have happened if Caesar had fought it?

  1. Yes, I probably would have joined the conspirators.

  2. Probably not. Augustus truly was a brilliant man in the right place at the right time, and if Caesar had lived, Augustus’ rule would not necessarily have been assured. I also agree with Tamerlane that an imperial structure was inevitable.

  3. As you implied, he was a man of his time. His successors had similar amounts of blood on their hands.

Hmm… I think Vercengetorix might have a quibble with that.

Well, Caesar would have said that he was reforming the system - the dictatorship was an institution of the Republic’s constitution, and he was using it to reform the Senate and government of Rome. The simple fact that he wielded dictatorial power, in itself, was not inconsistent with the ideals of the Republic. The Senate voted him that power, for a limited period of time. :wink:

Well, yah, on the battlefield. But, hey, “dulce et decorum est pro patria mori”, right? Stuff happens in war - but in peacetime, Caesar didn’t go around having people killed for their land and money like Sulla (and Antony/Lepidus/Octavian) did, eh?

You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means. :smiley: What made Caesar a tyrant, exactly? His use of violence to gain power? Heck, the Gracchus brothers tried that, and no one remembers them as would-be tyrants - they’re remembered as populist reformers! (Of course, they failed). The fact that he wasn’t popularly elected? Doesn’t matter - the office of Dictator was a Senatorial appointment, by law. And the Senate appointed him. What, precisely, did Caesar do that was the act of a bloody tyrant? Did he enslave his people? Steal their land and treasure? Compel them to worship foreign gods? What? :wink:

Okay, fine, without spilling Roman blood by the bucketload in peacetime. Whaddaya want? The man was a politician and a general, not a saint.

I think you’re too hard on Sulla. He at least stepped down from power which was more than any of his successors did.

That said, I figure the Republic was pretty much doomed by 44BC. If Caesar hadn’t taken over, some other strongman - Pompey, Catiline, Lepidus, Crassus, Clodius - would have. Rome was full of men waiting to tear down the Republic. Caesar was a better replacement than most.

In the Roman world, a tyrant was something different than it is today. Caesar was almost assuredly a tyrant because he took actions that were ultra vires to the offices he held and it was only because of these actions that he came to the level of power he did. Now, he did get the Senate to ratify his acts, but only at the point of a sword.

He intended ( I think it is fairly clear ) to do away, either directly or by artifice and semantics, with that little “limited period of time clause.” :wink:

Which isn’t to say he may not have been the best solution to a messy situation. But on the ground and without modern hindsight, for every person who favored a strongman to make the trains run on time, there were surely some who feared a return to the days of Tarquin II and all the uncertainies inherent in dynastic rule.

It only for a limited period of time for a limited period of time. He was later named Dictator Perpetuus (dictator for life).

Assuming I only had knowledge of the presence if I were astute enough I might come to the conclusion that the Republic died with Sulla or perhaps earlier. The death of Caesar isn’t going to bring it back. Worse yet we’ve been fighting civil wars lately and the death of Caesar may trigger another.

If the Republic wasn’t dead before Caesar seized power he was certainly the one who drove a stake through it’s heart, decapitated it, and buried it at a crossroad. I’m thinking the Romans would have been better off with Caesar if only to avoid the civil war that followed his assassination. Who knows, perhaps Caesar would have been able to come up with a more permanent government that was better that Augustus’.

The guy granted clemency to his enemies. That’s a point in his favor. If I were a Gaul my answer might be different.

Marc

Hard to say. Caesar was a much better general than Crassus or Antonius, both of whom tried to invade Parthia and met disaster. But Parthia was a more formidable enemy than any the Romans had faced since Carthage, and the terrain was difficult. (You can read a historical-fiction account of Antony’s Parthian expedition in Antony and Cleopatra, by Colleen McCullough.)

Damn you BrainGlutton, damn you to hell. I waded through all three of her Men of Rome trilogy to find out there were two more and now you tell me this. Right. You’re on The List and your summons to appear before the Urban Praetor is in the post.

1.) If you had been a prominent Roman citizen at the time of Julius Caesar’s assassination, and the conspirators had approached you, would you have joined the conspiracy? Betrayed it? Or done nothing?

If I was a prominent Roman citizen at the time, I would no doubt support whichever leader was most likely to advance my interests, least likely to kill me, and with whom I had a client relationship.
2.) Now, from a historical perspective - would Rome have been better off if Caesar survived? Would it still have transitioned into the Imperial system?

Probably no, probably yes.

3.) Perhaps this is a fuzzier question, but - did Caesar deserve to be assassinated? Did his conduct in Rome’s civil war mark him out as a mad dog who needed to be put down, or were his hands no bloodier than those of most great men of his day?

His hands were decidedly less bloody. If he’d been as vicious as Sulla or Marius, there would have been no one left to murder him. It is difficult for us today to understand that there was no real republic left to defend. Caesar and his contemporaries grew up in a time of civil war. Pompey was little more than a child when he became one of Sulla’s lieutenants. A young Caesar’s first exposure to public life may well have been to a Forum festooned with severed body parts. All these men had ever really known was the sword used on neighbors and family members, to imagine any of them as beasts just slavering to destroy an orderly and good Republic is a fairy tale. Their first taste of law was the Sullan dictatorship, what amounted to a legalized mass murder and theft. To rule by military force was not a usurpation as far as they were concerned, rather it was the natural order of what the Roman political world had become long before they were in a position to do anything about it. Both Caesar and Pompey were remarkable men, but Caesar’s clemency was exceptional considering the environment into which he was born. If deserving had anything to do with it, I’d say he didn’t. But it doesn’t.

Actually, there are seven.

See also Imperium, by Robert Harris – centers on Cicero, ends with his election as consul, sequels coming.

:mad:

Okay, that’s it. Time to invest in an air ticket, a tub of vaseline and a large garden gnome.

In the last few years I’ve really got into ancient history and have found the Steven Pressfield and McCullough books better than any history texts for truly getting a feel for what things must have been like in Greece and Rome.

Also enjoyed the Harris Rome books. That dreadful Conn Igguldan or whatever crap though I can’t stand. Any author who has to change the facts and timings of the long fall of the republic and the life of Julius C to come up with a plot isn’t worth spit as a writer. I haven’t read any of his Genghis Khan stuff but hear the scene where Khan joins forces with Robin Hood to defeat the Spanish Armada is pretty good. :wink:

That’s another sign of his tyranny. Is he a king, to go around granting clemency? I mean, it’s bad enough he defeats his enemies, but for him to humiliate them like that…