Did cavalry have portable stables when on maneuvers?

Factual Questions
1

Something of a hail Mary pass since it’s an obscure topic, but Dopers are always surprising in their areas of knowledge-

I’ve read several books on cavalry (particularly the Civil War cavalry) and they go into great detail on battle tactics, winter shelters, tents for soldiers, sutlers, camp followers, etc., but something I’ve tried researching that isn’t spoken to much is the mechanics of exactly how they tended the horses when on march.

Best I can figure- the advance crew (in the Civil War this was often slaves for the Confederacy and escaped slaves for the Union) would build a makeshift corral with posts and trees like this one in good weather, but in inclement weather (particularly cold weather) does anybody know if they had portable barns- some sort of tent shelter for the horses and mules that travelled with them? (Since horses were expensive [$150 up for a good one, and late in the war a good one couldn’t be had most of the time] and of course absolutely mandatory I’d think that they would be at least as sheltered as the men, but I haven’t been able to verify this.)

Anyway, any info or recs on reading for the mechanics of day to day cavalry marches, please let me know. (In my ancestors’ regiment of the Confederacy the name cavalry was applied to dragoons [who rode into battle but usually fought on foot] and one man in 4 was left behind on a rotating basis to hold and guard the horses during the fight; this is the kind of stuff I’m looking for.)

2

I am not sure if they really needed any of that. It is very difficult to freeze a horse to death especially as you get further South. Horses are tolerant of a huge range of climate from sub-zero to scorching. Horses are luxury animals now and stables are obviously desirable but stables are as much about storing equipment and feed as much as anything else. If the horses are around people and being worked everyday anyway, I don’t think any formal shelter is required. They can just be tied up at night. People still do long-distance trail riding that is a similar idea at least to the horses and they just tie them up.

3

Hobbles

I would expect that they were very common, since they were relatively small and light and could be carried in a soldier’s pack.

Alternatively, simply tying a horse up to a tree, with a lead long enough to let them graze could work, as long as the lead wasn’t too long to avoid the horse getting tangled up in it. Tied up to a tree, it isn’t really different from this

Horses don’t mind being outside, even in the cold and rain and snow. They get decent winter coats, and just putting a blanket on if it gets too cold is often all you need. They take care of themselves, as long as their feed is properly supplemented. That extra feed would probably be carried by the replacement/pack horses.

4

Tents? For horses? It is to laugh (she said not unkindly). You just picketed the horses out on the lines. No shelter. Just food and water.

http://www.historynet.com/americas-civil-war-horses-and-field-artillery.htm/1

You really can’t stable a 1,500 pound horse or mule in anything less sturdy than solid wood (or sheet steel). And anything sturdy enough to stable a horse by definition will not be portable, unless it’s a horse trailer on wheels being towed by a truck.

A horse or mule panicking, rearing, and desiring to bolt during a thunderstorm but confined in a tent or lightweight portable shelter is a recipe for a total disaster (think: the last time you got tangled up in your sleeping bag at camp, but you only had two legs, not four), probably ending in broken legs and euthanasia for the animal.

5

[QUOTE=Duck Duck Goose]
http://www.historynet.com/americas-civil-war-horses-and-field-artillery.htm/1
[/QUOTE]

Great link, thanks!

They carried some pretty considerable tents in the pre-automotive era. Some wall tents built for officers alone were plenty large enough for horses (8 feet tall or so at the zenith), and the tents used as field hospitals/sutleries/etc. were larger.
That said, I agree it wouldn’t do much to keep a spooked horse calm.

mnemosyne: Thanks for the link on the hobbles. We used those on our horses when I was a kid but I’d totally forgotten them til now. I wonder how far back they date- will research.

Thanks to all.

6

[QUOTE=mnemosyne]
Hobbles

I would expect that they were very common, since they were relatively small and light and could be carried in a soldier’s pack.

Alternatively, simply tying a horse up to a tree, with a lead long enough to let them graze could work, as long as the lead wasn’t too long to avoid the horse getting tangled up in it. …
[/QUOTE]
If there weren’t enough/any trees you’d use hobbles and a picket line.

CMC +fnord!

7

But even a really big tent is still just a tent–it’s fabric, see. And a horse that’s determined to kick itself free from a confined space needs to have something that doesn’t give at all, because the biggest danger is that the horse will punch a hole straight through whatever it is, and get his leg through it, and then continue panicking and struggling, and thus break his own leg. So it has to be sturdy.

But a terrified, struggling horse enclosed within a tent can only get himself tangled up even worse, surrounded by billowing clouds of heavy fabric, which only serves to frighten him worse, because he can’t see, and with the addition of ropes and guy wires, which can quite easily get wrapped around his legs, and there–again–he manages to break his own leg. And if he doesn’t break his leg, he can only struggle to exhaustion, collapsing when he literally cannot struggle any more.

And then of course he’s not going to be good for hauling artillery the next day, that’s if he doesn’t die of the exhaustion, or heart attack, or something, or is so traumatized that nobody can do a thing with him ever again.

Nah, tents and horses just do not mix.

The point of stabling horses is not to keep them calm, because there’s nothing that can keep a horse calm that’s determined to be scared of something. The point of stabling horses is to keep them (a) convenient and (b) clean. It’s a lot easier to saddle up and ride off if your horse is ready to hand in the stable, and doesn’t have a ton of dirt that has to be cleaned off before you can ride him.

The Indians were able to steal horses from the U.S. Cavalry because the horses frequently weren’t enclosed in a building or shelter, they were just corraled, or tied and/or hobbled.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9901E6DD153BE63BBC4D51DFB066838C679FDE

Hobbles date at least from the Scythians. Scroll down to 4th century B.C.E. bowl of Scythian horseman applying hobbles to his horse.

Also Xenophon.

8

For that matter, I’ve never heard of Indians building stables (except of course the ones who lived like whites). The Plains Indians just corraled them, didn’t they?

I suppose I’m thinking of horses more like dogs in the needing shelter department when they’re more like cows. I don’t recall ever once bringing one of our cows into a barn other than for milking or medical treatment, and other than a couple who were killed by lightning I don’t recall any dying from the exposure.

I wonder if they ever used sun sails (a canvas canopy tied between trees or poles- no walls- still used and in fact I gave my sister one for her birthday) to provide some shelter if things were really terrible. It’s possible that heat was a greater problem than cold.

Most of my research has been about the cavalry mules. They’re fascinating animals all in all, and several generals lamented that they didn’t have the speed of horses because they were so much more intelligent. The biggest advantage is strength of course, but another is that a horse will literally drink or eat itself to death- they are notorious for overfeeding- while a mule will not. In fact, the notion of mules being “stubborn” is based on the fact that they have a sense of self preservation that rivals or surpasses a human’s- if a mule feels it’s being overworked then it’s by-gad going to take a break. The same thing with trying to march it directly into what any sensible animal knows is dangerous, whether a steep ledge or a battle or a place that is likely to have snakes- they’re not going to do it without a fight.

Hijacking, but one story I’ve read from the U.S. Camel Corps stuck with me. One of the soldiers given charge of them was a muleskinner and he was known to be particularly brutal to mules- had been disciplined for it in fact. When a camel who was not quite adult wouldn’t do his bidding he basically did what he’d do to a refusing mule and beat the hell out of it with a stick, beating it harder since even though it wasn’t grown it was bigger than a mule. He didn’t realize (a common problem with the Camel Corps- they had no idea how to deal with the beasties and the hired Syrian “camel handlers” weren’t much better) that when it comes to strength, self defense and self preservation camels make mules look like suicidal daredevils.

The camel took the beating, which encouraged the man and made him think he’d won. When the soldier was finished the camel (played by Joe Pesci) gave an “Are you finished? Are you sure, cause I don’t wanna interrupt you whippin’ my ass if you ain’t finished? Cause I can wait, I don’t mind… whip it some more in fact…” style look, then expressed it’s displeasure. It took the camel about a second to permanently maim the abusive soldier.

Don’t know if it’s true or if it’s mythology, but a good story either way. And at least the guy probably didn’t abuse any more mules. (Another problem with the Camel Corps was one that reading Herodotus would have avoided- some people didn’t realize the degree to which horses and camels despise each other; I wonder where mules stand on the camel issue.)

9

The US Army used camels? When?

10

Slightly before the Civil War. More here.

11

Some other oddities:

The Indian Army during the Raj imported mules from Kansas

In the early 1700’s the Swedes tried to incorporate domesticated moose into their army, but the moose had no tolerance for gunfire.

Once routine in the aftermath of battle was to make bonfires of the dead horses. Big, stinky dead horse bonfires.

The British bought thousands of horses for WWI, some so conditoned to working in the city that they only responded to bells. British Army casualties in WWI included 800,000 horses.

When was the last cavalry charge? Claimants to that distinciton are the US 26 Cavalry in Luzon in 1942, the Italians and Cossacks on the Russian Front, and British mounted police during the Mau Mau urising in Kenya in the 1950’s

12

(missed the edit window to add this bit of vainglory):

In 1986, the US sold the Phillipines 6 armored personel carriers for their fight against the Communist New People’s Army. The NPA announced they would kill as many US servicemen in revenge. I was there at the time with an amphibious battle group, and all 12,000 of us had our liberty restricted to the naval station. One of my favorite things to do was to rent a horse at the old Horse Marine stables on base and ride the bridle trail up into the jungle. If the NPA had wanted to make good on its threat and sneak on base, I might have been the historical footnote as the last US serviceman killed on horseback.

13

Horses do not need shelter the same way dogs do. Horses in the continental United States routinely winter outside. They grow a woolly winter coat, they turn their backs to the wind, and their coats insulate so well that they acquire a blanket of snow and ice, which if you think about it, proves that no heat is being lost, because otherwise their body heat would keep the snow and ice melted.

Cite. “winterizing horses in Alberta, Canada”.

http://www.strathcona.ab.ca/Strathcona/Rural+Life/Country+Talk/November+2007/Winterized+your+horse+this+year%3F.htm

Note the three things they need: food, water, and a place to get out of the wind, which does not need to be a barn–a “forest” will do, or a three-sided open shed. It doesn’t need to be enclosed. And note that the shelter is not for survival–it’s so the horse doesn’t have to expend as much energy in keeping warm, and thus it cuts down on your feeding costs.

In the wild, mustangs move down into sheltered creek valleys to get out of the wind.

As for heat, remember that Arabians hail from the desert, and that mustangs bred freely and happily in the most torrid (and treeless, and shadeless) High Plains summers. Once acclimated, and with plenty of water, horses have no problem managing sun and heat. Remember also that horses evolved on the North American high plains, hardly a balmy, pleasant climate.

[QUOTE=Slithy Tove]
(missed the edit window to add this bit of vainglory):

In 1986, the US sold the Phillipines 6 armored personel carriers for their fight against the Communist New People’s Army. The NPA announced they would kill as many US servicemen in revenge. I was there at the time with an amphibious battle group, and all 12,000 of us had our liberty restricted to the naval station. One of my favorite things to do was to rent a horse at the old Horse Marine stables on base and ride the bridle trail up into the jungle. If the NPA had wanted to make good on its threat and sneak on base, I might have been the historical footnote as the last US serviceman killed on horseback.
[/QUOTE]

So…did they? Kill six servicemen? Finish the damn story, willya! I’m sitting here with my mouth open!

:smiley:

14

[QUOTE=Sampiro]
For that matter, I’ve never heard of Indians building stables (except of course the ones who lived like whites). The Plains Indians just corraled them, didn’t they?

[/QUOTE]

Plains Indians corraled the horses if they had some reason to, such as suspecting a raiding party would be along shortly … but often they simply turned the horses out, in the same way that people in rural areas might let cats or dogs roam. They’re herd animals, you only really need to get one back to you and the whole bunch comes along. And they’ll feed themselves while they’re out and about.

15

A lot of the guys were pretty happy with the $5 blowjobs availble in town, so they’d climb the fence to get to the girls. We started a pool to bet on the sailor most likely to get killed, but nobody did.

The Marines would go out on training manuvers in the hills, where they’d encounter groups of NPA and have nasty little firefights. Some jarheads would get shot, but the NPA got the message that Uncle Sam would be pleased to incorporate them into the training regime as target practice. It was one of those quasi-wars back in the Regan era. For the most part, they stayed clear of us and chose to fight their fellow Phillipinos

16

[QUOTE=Duck Duck Goose]
But even a really big tent is still just a tent–it’s fabric, see. And a horse that’s determined to kick itself free from a confined space needs to have something that doesn’t give at all, because the biggest danger is that the horse will punch a hole straight through whatever it is, and get his leg through it, and then continue panicking and struggling, and thus break his own leg. So it has to be sturdy.

But a terrified, struggling horse enclosed within a tent can only get himself tangled up even worse, surrounded by billowing clouds of heavy fabric, which only serves to frighten him worse, because he can’t see, and with the addition of ropes and guy wires, which can quite easily get wrapped around his legs, and there–again–he manages to break his own leg. And if he doesn’t break his leg, he can only struggle to exhaustion, collapsing when he literally cannot struggle any more.
[/QUOTE]
But this isn’t characteristic of cavalry horses at all. They were not “terrified, struggling horses” – they were trained animals, used to these conditions. Plus they were often very, very tired, and glad to spend the night just standing still.

Horses would normally be hobbled, or tied to a picket line (usually a high picket – a long rope about head high between 2 trees, with the horses tied to it by shorter ropes). Such picket lines are still used today on trail rides. I’ve helped build them in Minnesota State Parks.

Normally, horses would be kept out in the open, except in very inclement weather. Then they might be kept under a cover, either a large tent roof (no walls) or just a canvas cover stretched overhead. This was desirable for shade in very hot situations, or as protection from rain. In cold locations, protection from snow & especially wind could be provided by a tent roof with one to 3 sides enclosed. With a roof to keep them dry and a windbreak to keep the wind off, horses can do quite well.

Note that this shelter is primarily for efficiency.
A horse can survive without shelter from wind or snow or rain, but it will use up more of its feed to do so. So either the cavalry needs to provide more feed for such horses, or accept that the horse will be weaker the next day. (And providing sufficient feed for the horses was already a logistics problem. Carrying canvas & ropes to provide a better shelter for the horses might replace several wagonloads of feed.)

Also, horses & tents have been mixing since at least Medieval times; it was common for a knight in tournaments to get completely armed & mounted inside his tent, since it was considered classy for them not to be seen until they made their entrance.

17

[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net]
But this isn’t characteristic of cavalry horses at all. They were not “terrified, struggling horses” – they were trained animals, used to these conditions.
…
tent roof with one to 3 sides enclosed.

[/QUOTE]

Based on my experience of horses, I would just like to add that no matter how well trained and sensible a horse is, there is always a possibility of them completely freaking out due to something unusual or unexpected - in which case having them inside a fully enclosed tent would be a very bad idea, and having one open side for them to dash out of would be appreciated.

[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net]

it was common for a knight in tournaments to get completely armed & mounted inside his tent.
[/QUOTE]

But did they usually keep their (incredibly valuable and supremely well-trained) chargers inside tents, or in some more open shelter?

More specifically to the OP - the only references to army horsecare in the field that I have seen relate to portable forges for farriers, the difficulties of maintaining fodder and water supplies, and the logistic challenges inherent in needing to rest horses during marches. Supplying them with shelter etc. does not figure unless in very extreme conditions or special situations e.g. from
http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/forgottenarmy.htm

18

[QUOTE=Slithy Tove]
Big, stinky dead horse bonfires.
[/QUOTE]

Which I think was also the original name of barbecue flavored “Vienna Sausages” (or maybe it’s just the same smell).

Speaking of dead horses, I’ve read that often after a major battle dead horses were just left on the field to rot or at best doused with kerosene (not always available) and set ablaze. The reason’s obvious- burying hundreds- sometimes thousands- of men, even in mass graves, takes a lot of manpower and time and has to be done fast, while several dead thousand pound bloated horses with the skeleton crew (no pun intended) available for battlefield clean-up- it just ain’t gonna happen. Consequently there were still horse skeletons all around Gettysburg when Lincoln gave his address four months after the battle.

Also speaking of dead horses in the Civil War, in one book I read on the battles around Chattanooga and Knoxville it was mentioned that Wheeler’s cavalry was so desperate for horseshoes that some men were sent into the river where several horses had drowned during an evacuation to pull the shoes off the dead horses. Sometimes the hoof itself was sawed off if the shoe was not where it could be easily pried loose. Also at one point the cavalry was so hungry for protein that when horses died during the night the company surgeon (who was not a particularly highly trained medical professional even by 1860s standards, incidentally, but more like an EMT with a knack for amputations and suturing) would examine the horse for a set of signs to see if it was safe to butcher. (Basically they only ate the “healthy dead horses”- the ones who died from malnutrition/exhaustion rather than the ones that died of disease).

Has anybody ever eaten horse, incidentally? I’m told some people prefer it to beef. I would imagine it’s leaner.

19

Page 2 of this article has some neat info about how a Camel Corps expedition crossed the Colorado…

20

Highly trained cavalry horses are still susceptible to pointless panic.

http://www.historynet.com/the-7th-us-cavalry-regiment-fought-in-the-battle-of-the-little-bighorn.htm/3

http://www.delsjourney.com/close-ups/us/travels_mw/comanche.htm

http://web.cortland.edu/woosterk/norris.html

http://sudancampaign.blogspot.com/2005/11/battle-of-omdurman.html

http://www.cemetery.state.tx.us/pub/user_form.asp?step=1&pers_id=11071

…and that was just during a drill on the parade ground.

Horses have had 50 million years of evolution to teach them, “Run first, ask questions later”. No amount of training is going to make them chill out and refuse to panic if their hindbrain decides that “Panic! Now!” is the correct response to a situation. It’s just a fact of life when dealing with horses, and anybody who works with them learns this, quick.

During a medieval tournament, a horse in a jousting tent was surrounded by people–squires and pages and stableboys and assorted hangers-on and wellwishers–and if it started to get upset and appeared inclined to panic and kick its way out, there were many pairs of hands available to deal with the problem. So yeah, technically you can have “A Horse In A Tent”, but you can’t stable mass quantities of horses in tents plural on an ongoing basis because you don’t have mass quantities of people available to deal with them should trouble, fire, hissy fits, or a sudden thunderstorm arise.

And even tired horses will summon up the extra ounce of energy to bolt if they think the situation requires it. They’re hard-wired for panic. Nothing anybody can do about it. Training can ameliorate it somewhat, as with, say, police horses, but even then…

http://www.thevillager.com/villager_147/policeblotter.html

Spooked by what? Nobody knows. Nobody will ever know. Such is life with horses.