So I take it that if you do something stupid like literally shoot from the hip (which always seems to be the way quick draw shots are fired) your accuracy would be unbelievably bad. Anybody actually try that and see how close you’d actually have to be to hit something with a hip shot?
Shooting from the hip. Ever seen those mobile phone belt swivels or a microphone clip in an airplane? They had something like that for guns in the 1800s. The idea was that you could draw your gun quickly without a holster slowing you down. You could also just swivel the gun up and shoot it without taking it off of the clip if you wanted to. (This would have been problematic if you were standing, but might be useful if you were sitting.) But I digress.
There are three stages to a quick-draw shoot-out: 1) Draw the weapon; 2) Aim the weapon; 3) Fire the weapon. Aiming is the hard part. When a typical person goes to the range, s/he lines up the sights onto the target. In a quick-draw or a fast-moving situation this is not practical. Many handguns are ‘natural pointers’. If you point your finger at something, you’re probably going to be pointing right at it. If you have practiced enough, especially with a ‘natural pointer’, you can point a barrel accurately at your target. I don’t quick-draw. First, it’s a little dangerous and I’m big on safety. Second, it’s prohibited at ever controlled range I’ve been to. Third, I don’t need to. But I’ve seen it done, and practicing making the barrel an extension of your pointing finger does work.
Well, in the same sense that David Copperfield, et alia are using “magic”, yes. It’s a “trick”. That’s why they call it “trick shooting”. It is usually accomplished by using “live ammo” that is actually a miniature “shotgun shell”, firing #12 shot, also called “dust” shot. Because it spreads after firing, you can get a “hit”, with considerably less actual accuracy on your part, than if you used a solid shot. If you shot that into your leg, you probably wouldn’t even draw blood. Shoot it directly into your eye, on the other hand, and you’ve got a serious problem, but would likely only lose that eye. Balloons? “BANG”. Eggs? “BANG”. They usually use something heavier than #12 to do the clays. But only after they’ve practiced enough that they could reliably avoid shooting off their foot when they tried it. They call it “shooting skill”, Copperfield calls it “magic”, but yes, it’s all the same “witchcraft”. Cheap tricks that the “marks” don’t know enough to recognize.
people like John Wesley Hardin, writing at the time, make no mention of the ‘fast-draw’. (Hardin recalled getting his gun stuck in his suspenders trying to get it out as a peace officer advanced to arrest him. He afterwards went out and got a shoulder holster made.) Many people in photos of the era have clearly just stuck it in the waistband of their trousers. Some have all-enveloping flapped holsters like the type we associate with the US cavalry in the movies.
Even as the Frontier era was being laid to rest, Wild West shows were touring the Eastern cities embroidering the myths that would become firmly fixed in the public mind.
That’s a pretty spurious statistical assertion.
Sure, if you simply multiply it out, then 1.5 murders per 500 people is a murder rate of 300 per 100,000 population (the figure per 100,000 is quite commonly used in modern crime stats). And 300 per 100,000 is a very high murder rate. For comparison, in the 8 years i lived in Baltimore, the typical homicide rate was 250-300 homicides per year in a city of about 650,000 people, or a murder rate of about 40 per 100,000
But you can’t simply translate the rate per 100,000 of a small town and then draw meaningful conclusions about levels of violence. A single murder, or even two, in a population of 500 doesn’t really tell us anything at all about the general level of violence in that population. It may be that all it tells us is that the town had a single domestic dispute that year, or a single boundary quarrel, or a single incident of drunken rage. It’s quite different from a rate of 300 per 100,000 in a large town or city.
As one historical author on the subject notes:
From Robert R. Dykstra, “Imaginary Dodge City: A Political Statement,” Western Historical Quarterly, Vol. 31, No. 3 (Autumn, 2000), p. 279.
Other people who have posted to this thread might also like to note the quote above, because Dykstra says that “only fifteen adults died violently in Dodge” during the ten-year period. He does not say “were murdered,” so it’s not some attempt to hide violent deaths by simply refusing to call them murder. If Dykstra is correct, there were 15 violent deaths, in total, during this period.
I recall reading somewhere that Annie Oakley used shotshells in her handgun when she performed as a part of Buffalo Bill’s Wild West Show.
I used to compete in IPSC handgun matches drawing a Beretta 92FS 9mm with IIRC a 5.5" barrel from a standard holster on my strong side. Its not that hard and can actually be done quite accurately. You drill your draw and fire ALOT, when fractions of seconds count you want to make every shot a good one.
I spent about 30 min a day for a couple weeks just practicing drawing and bringing my gun up to a proper sight picture. Once you have that down you work on speed.
After a couple hundred round of draw and shoot twice, you can get pretty good at it.
I have (and have read) Bill O’Neal’s Encyclopedia of Western Gunfighters, and in the several hundred fights that he documents, I do not recall any Dime Novel/Hollywood type gunfights. There are a few fights where enemies saw each other at approximately the same time and began shooting at each other, but no approaching each other on Main Street, hands poised over holsters, psyching out the other guy to blink as one fired.
Close.
Iaijutsu, drawing the sword from the saya (scabbard) in one smooth motion. Usually from a seated position, often with a sword shorter than a daitō (katana) but not a shōtō (wakizashi). More or less a “court sword” designed to be easier to fight with indoors
Getting the gun out of the holster cleanly.
Iaidō, drawing the sword from the saya, striking an opponent, removing blood from the blade, and then replacing the sword in the saya in a “single” controlled movement (I.E. cutting from the saya, rather than first drawing the sword and then engaging an enemy as a separate action. Also called battokiri (translated as “cutting draw”).
The gunfight between Doc and Johnny Ringo in Tombstone seen here at ~1:30 to ~ 2:10 would be an example of “pistoldō”. (What is the Japanese word for pistol/handgun/et al., Babel Fish was less than helpful.)
Battōjutsu, drawing the sword from the saya, making multiple strikes against a single or multiple opponent(s), removing blood from the blade, and replacing the sword in the saya.
The videos on YouTube for Iaidō tend more towards Battōjutsu, but this page is full of traditional and modern Iaidō strikes followed by Battōjutsu strikes (BTW the final move with the sword before replacing it in the saya is not a strike but a swing intended to clean the blade of blood, the proper name of which I can’t remember :smack:.)
In period, definitely not just for display an actual combat skill. It became a formalized martial art in it’s own right practiced at less than full speed with the intent of being focused, controlled, and precise much like tai chi chuan.
CMC fnord!
Nope!!
I guess I am going to “have” to correct you armchair city boys.
Ive seen Bob shoot, and Ive seen the cartridges he shoots. He clearly shows spectators what he is shooting. He shoots lead, a single lead bullet in each casing. He does not shoot birdshot nor blanks. Moreover, blanks do not do that- blanks cannot burst a balloon at 20 feet nor an egg at 20 feet, nor an egg at 100 feet. Even birdshot out of a handgun cartridge will not consistently break an egg at 20 feet because there is too little shot and it is scattered too much.
Lastly, Bob did not become as good as he is by shooting blanks, he practiced, and still practices, with real cartridges that shoot single lead bullets.
As far as Bob giving advice to the general public or to “you guys” in particular, then yes, I agree that both of you guys should never try this at home with real bullets.
Occasionally, for some of her demonstrations, depending on place and time. Her decision on what kind of cartridges to use had nothing to do with her being able to hit the target.
However, her decision whether or not to use birdshot was actually a function of safety of the specators. A shotshell has limited range so you dont want to be shooting bullets into the air facing people in the grandstand in front of you. Buffalo Bill’s show was held all over the world, in cities, and in enclosed areas, not just outside.
If she was shooting outside with nobody downrange, then she would use bullets, or if she was shooting a handgun or rifle against a backstop (blowing out candles, cutting a cigarette in somebody’s mouth in half, then she would use single bullets.
…“because it spreads” means that after 8 or 10 feet or so the shot will be so dispersed that you wont hit anything.
The shot spreads continuously, more and more each foot. Furthermore, shooting shot out of a rifled barrel from a rifle or a handgun, spreads the shot unevenly making it even more UNlikely of hitting a target with birdshot after a short distance.
Shooting birdshot out of a rifled barrel only works at VERY!!! close range.
I’ve lived in the sticks all my life, except for a few years when I moved into the city to shorten my commute. I moved out again, once I decided that the short commute wasn’t worth the pain of living in a city.
And Penn and Teller have members of the audience mark the bullets they use for their “Bullet Trick”. Magicians and trick shooters have ways of substituting the thing you looked at for the thing they want to actually use. Standard misdirection trickery. [insert yawn smiley here]
How much shooting have you done? I’ve done plenty, including with “dust” shot cartridges. Blanks, no, “Dust Shot”, yes, it will break an egg, or burst a balloon at 20 feet. I’ve done it. Have you tried?
Of course not. “Dust” shot cartridges aren’t blanks. Also, if you practice enough, then you probably will get good enough to use solid shot, too. He makes his living at it. I don’t want to, so will never practice enough to do that. I’ll never get as good at “magic” as David Copperfield either, for the same reason, even if I can see how he does many of his tricks.
And I won’t, and didn’t need his advice to decide not to either. As I said, I’ve done enough shooting of various types to know both how hard, and how dangerous it can be. I have no interest in doing anything that would require his skill, so I’m never going to go to the trouble (or danger) to try to develop it.
Perhaps you are the one “armchair” applies to better? 
It was NOT even a true story.
The movie: The Quick and the Dead…was a “spoof”…a “comedy”.
I hate to disappoint you guys, but there never actually was a blonde Sharon Stone participating in a fast-draw death contest in the old west while wearing Armani sunglasses.
I myself use a 3.5 inch 38…and you are right, after a several thousand rounds, its not as hard as it looks. (neither is shooting thrown clay targets with a 22 if you practice enough).
No way could we ever compete against Bob, but an average person can become pretty decent if he practices enough.
Ive been shooting over 60 years. Trick shooting over 50 years. When I go out shooting, in a typical day I will shoot about a thousand rounds a day.
I shoot too much to use birdshot, its too expensive, it has too short of a range, it is virtually useless for almost everything, its too hard to get in the quantities I use, and I dont need it.
(Yeah, I tried, and I dont believe that you can consistently break an egg by shooting at it with bird shot at 20 feet out of a rifled handgun barrel. The shot pattern is too sparse, and too inconsistent)
Lastly, this is a topic about fast draw, not a debate between you and me, so I will no longer reply to you. Birdshot has nothing to do with the topic of cowboys in the Old West doing fast draw shootouts to the death.
…
Thats fightin talk…
Well and good. It was drifting off into hijack territory, anyway.
You know what can deter hijackers?
Guns.
My grandparents played cards with friends and neighbors in each others homes a lot for entertainment. ( North Texas farm country around the turn of the century. )
Long story short:
Poker was fun and a good time.
Whist was played many a night. (sp)
Penny a point hearts was serious business. No renigging. period. dot. Guns were on the table. I saw pictures as a child and my Dad remembered some scary stuff from his childhood.
The only part of the Hollywood gun fight stuff that is really accurate is that there were a lot of flinty eyed guys who did not back up much and knew their weapons and were willing to kill. They were mostly Civil War veterans and had a family and children and were not looking for fights. Tough bunch overall.
I lived with a family some which the mother could pick up a single shot old rifle and hit a blue poker chip at 200 feet+ faster than I could pick up my rifle and even see the chip. She could do it every time. (1959)
My maternal grandmother could consistently shoot running jackrabbits with an ARMY colt .45 from the back of a galloping house while sitting sidesaddle.
I have my CCW and I practice getting my weapon out. Am I practicing for 'quick draw?" I guess so because I have seen first hand how fast an idiot came come up with a gun surprising everyone. Are we doing a stand up western quick draw ala Matt Dillon? Nah. But a weapon locked away is totally useless.
Back when folks were curious about actors real skill level, I heard ( no cite ) that Jimmy Brown was actually the fastest against the clock and also in a real face to face like in the movies with others actors who were silly nuff to go against him. Da boy was quick.
Giving a man a fair chance in a real fight is stupid and most folks back then were not that stupid so face to face speed tests for real were not that common. But even today, punks with sticks or just numbers can make you wish you had practiced more.
YMMV