Twitch, nobody’s pushing any button yet. Do you think though that as the evidence begins to mount and point overwhelmingly in a single direction that the public, having just suffered a most savage wrong, won’t begin to speculate? And your notion the calls from the plane were a blame-diverting ploy is utterly laughable and cyber-tatooes a big “delusional” across your forehead.
Akatsukami, you started out with me in your corner but I’m off that cross-logical bus in a hurry and for good. You weren’t being serious, were you?
So we should wipe out all of the native cultures (which vary widely, btw) in this region because of the actions of a few? And this will make us the good guys?!!??
Really? So you advocate wiping out American culture too, I take it. After all, McVeigh and his buddies were homeboys. Operation Rescue and their clinic-bombing, doctor-shooting ilk are products of our culture. The Identity Christians and other fanatical groups, who advocate similar violence and terrorism (although they’ve so far been more talk than action), are local.
Um, yeah, right.
You do realize that the USSR tried to subdue this region for years, right? They were never noted for their kinder, gentler style of dictatorship - and still failed miserably. Whatever makes you think we can accomplish anything in this manner?
So we’ll kill some for their religion and some for their politics - regardless of whether those individuals have committed any crimes at all. Quite the American, aren’t you? And what a lovely culture and righteous values you want to export.
So any attempt to resist the destruction of their culture, their country, their government, their religion - no matter how good their intentions or how innocent their lives - is an automatic death sentence. How quaint.
You mean, like the US did to the native tribes here? You mean, like the US and other countries did to the African slaves they imported? You mean, like the English did to the Australian aboriginals? Yeah, that’s been quite the success.
So even women (who have absolutely no power under Taliban law and may well oppose the Taliban), even children who have done nothing, all will be subjected to life imprisonment for the unimaginably vile crime of being Afghani. But in your infinite mercy, justice, and wisdom, you’ll let them live. How touching.
So, not only their culture, but their language and religion will be abolished. Long live American values!
Sorry, but you’ve already said it will. Obviously your knowledge of Islam and Islamic culture is as limited as your understanding of history, human nature and logic, and as nonexistent as your common sense.
Yeah, right, and that’s gonna happen. US taxpayers will jump at the chance - oh wait, those people don’t need this now, do they? They’re all in interment camps for life. Y’know, if we just go ahead and sterilize all of them while we’re at it…
Erm, excuse me for asking, but what in hell makes you think that other countries will quietly sit around and wait for us to do the same thing to them? Do you really think we can take on the entire world at once? Or do you think that all of Asia and the Middle East will be foolish enough to follow the Niemoller system? And do you actually think that Europe and the Americas will stand by silently and just watch this massacre?
:rolleyes: doesn’t even begin to express it. You, sir or ma’am, are the epitome of the Ugly American. You are the type of person that makes me ashamed to live in the same country with you. I am only glad that I can say that your “values” are not mine, that your “culture” is not mine, and that you do NOT represent the people of the United States. Yes, many will say similar things in the heat of the moment; many will say similar things in anger and rage and frustration. But only a few will actually believe them to be true. The majority of Americans have the sense and the morality and the ethics that you are obviously lacking.
Actually, Kumquat, I think that you’re the fucking idiot here.
Genocide? That’s your racist interpretation, pig. I specifically said I do not believe that Afghan ethnicity and Afghan culture are linked. Of course, we’ve known for a long time that this multiculturalim bullshit is the liberal’s way of saying, “They don’t pain like we do”. Thank you for making clear.
The Afghan people got the Russians to go home with a shitload of American aid. Who are you proposing is going to provide the aid this time? And, of course, I noted the cost. What cost that mommy and daddy paid to send you to a college where you learned to mumble “No land war in Asia”?
Forcing “a known member of the nuclear gang”? Yep. Maybe you are so shit scared of nuclear weapons that you’ll hand over your wallet, your soul, and your virgin daughters to anyone threatens to touch one off. Let me tell you something, little boy: someone standing at ground zero when a nuke goes off is just as dead as the people at the WTC and the Pentagon are. No more, no less.
So, Kumquat, let’s hear your idea of an appropriate reason.
And, Tansu, yes, I believe that cultural imperialism is a good idea. No people are, by nature, any better or worse than any others. Cultures are. If you don’t believe that, maybe you ought to talk to the ghosts in Nanking.
Ok, you may not consider this genocide as you’re not advocating killing every Afgani, however, your “solution” (quoted below) is apalling. And bears more than a passing resemblence to what the Nazi’s started out doing to Jews in the 30’s and 40’s.
Explain to me how women and children (yes, even people over the age of 7 are still children) who may very well oppose the Taliban warrant life internment in “relocation” camps?
I don’t claim to have any solutions, and I strongly agree that the parties responsible (including those that harbour them) deserve to be punished. I also realise that in war many innocent lives are invariably lost. I’m not being naive, but your “solution” quite frankly scares the hell out of me.
Ah, Akatsukami, good to have you back. I was worried we’d lost the connection to planet fuckwit. Now we’ll go slowly, but I still don’t have any high hope of getting this through to you.
Destroying the Afghan culture, sending their children to families in the US, outlawing their language - these are ideas that are every bit as evil as the terrorist attack on the WTC. These are the sort of actions that Stalin and Mao Tse Tung got a little bit of a bad rep for. However, I don’t really think there’s much point trying to debate morals with you, dear chap. So, why don’t we look at a couple of little problemettes with your daring campaign.
Let’s see - Afghanistan: landlocked, surrounded by a set of nations with no strong relations with the USA. No problem for you though, because you say that if Pakistan don’t do what you say and let you through, you’ll make them.
I’ll try to make this simple for you. Pakistan is a sovereign nation, with a proud people. They also have the fucking bomb, my little low wattage bulbed fellow. If you drop your 30,000 strong expeditionary force on their shores, they may not just decide to go along. As they have (according to the CIA) 21,206,148 men fit for military service, it could be a little bit of a massacre. Even if your troops do manage a kill ratio of 700 to 1, we still have the slight concern that Pakistan might just drop a nuke on your brave boys. Ignoring that though when you start declaring war on Pakistan, neighbouring nations might get concerned. They may very well offer Pakistan and Afghanistan aid against this act of imperial aggression. They include China and Iran, who have some fairly good armies between them. Hmm, this might cause a couple of problems. World War fucking three, anybody?
So, my little shitbrained friend, are you starting to see any problems yet? And that’s before we even debate the morality of this new world order you’d like to impose.
I await your next installment with great eagerness.
If he serves a cause (other than his own aggrandizement) there is no single course of action Osama bin Ladin could take at this point which would provide a greater benefit to his cause than to surrender to the authorities of a neutral country, and submit to trial in international court on the charge of terrorism.
I pray he does not realize it, or lacks the true faith in his convictions to make that bold step. Our system of justice so heavily weighs the need for proof that years would be needed to conclude the matter, and there is no great assurance that a conviction would be obtained. Far better for the defense of freedom that he spurn justice, and remain a hidden fugitive that can be easily killed by direct action. The rules of engagement for military forces of the United States and suspected terrorists have been changed. To return Bin Ladin to the arena of civilized contest of law would confer a great advantage on him, and keep his cause in the conscious thoughts of the world in a far better light, for a very long time.
The people dancing in the street in Palestine are not representatives of their culture, but they have done it more harm in one minute than the Israeli’s have done in fifty years. Egypt might claim to be our friend, but the smiling congratulations of businessmen in the streets will not fade soon from the memories of those who make economic decision on this side of the Atlantic. Real changes in world politics don’t come from the edges; they come from the middle. Tuesday, the middle moved. It won’t move back easily.
Tris
“He who fights too long against dragons becomes a dragon himself; and if you gaze too long into the abyss, the abyss will gaze into you.” ~ Friedrich Nietzsche ~
Akatsukami, do you not realize that the attitude that you have is the same exact shit that started this whole thing in the first place? You think their culture’s fucked up? You’ve only seen the extremists.
Those extremeists think that our culture’s fucked up. That we are evil. Satanic. They acted upon that belief (if that is indeed what happened; we don’t know at this point). Is that what you want to do to them, now?
Hey, AotL, you hit upon a very valid point, and one that was crisscrossing through my head, but I didn’t know how to articulate it. Thank you. I’m an American, and a sympathetic one. But things aren’t always black and white like that. And that’s how most Americans are looking at this, IMHO. [sub][/sub]We have our system(s) of beliefs, and when we come under attack, for whatever the reason, the perpetrators are evil incarnate. From the terrorists’ standpoint, however, we are the evil ones. Since we disagree with their belief systems, their attack was completely justified. And to us, our retaliation will be completely justified. And so on. If, and that’s a big if, bin Laden is behind this, then no matter what we do, he’s convinced himself and his followers that he is right, and that he was justified. No amount of jail time, death, or retribution will change the public perception of that.
[sub][/sub]This is, of course, going on the presumption that the attack was religion motivated. And we all know that religion is one of the leading causes of war.
Unconventional warfare will be answered unconventionally…the warning given Iraq against the use of chemical weapons…Chemical weapons were not used…
If Pakistan escalated a conflict with us to a nuclear level, they would not exist afterwards…It’s that simple…We know this, they know this…Pakistan may be a stubborn, proud nation, but its not stupid…there is a chance it could at least survive a conventional war with the US…There is no way that it could even hope to hold its own in a nuclear exchange, even just a tactical one…
Nah, not really worth the energy of swatting. When we start swatting, you’ll know it. Just turning on a light bright enough to make the cowardly, imbecilic vermin scurry their sorry asses for cover.
What the FUCK is with this particular line of “logic”? I think I’ve seen it half-a-dozen fucking times already now.
Look, I don’t know if Osama Bin Laden did this, or Saddam Hussein, or O.J.-fucking-Simpson. But fuck this line of “logic” which says:
[ul]
[li]If there is no evidence pointing to someone, obviously that person is innocent.[/li][li]If there is evidence pointing to someone, then the evidence is “too good to be true”, so that person is innocent.[/li][/ul]
So, let’s see: The more evidence there is that a person committed a crime, the greater the likelihood that they are innocent. Therefore, we must say that the less evidence there is tying a particular person to a crime, the more likely they are to have done it. So, there’s no evidence tying me to the Kennedy assassination, plus I wasn’t even born yet. So I must be a prime suspect there, huh? Go ahead and lock me the fuck up!
Is this something from the fucking Bizarro World school of jurisprudence? “All evidence point to defendant! Therefore him not guilty!”
Sweet Baby Jesus on a sidecar, people. Evidence that someone committed a crime would tend to incline one to a belief that they committed a crime. That evidence may be rebutted by other evidence. The evidence may be sufficient to raise the question, but not sufficient to allow us to come to a satisfactory conclusion. Evidence may be misinterpreted. We may re-evaluate the evidence. But, if we have evidence that someone committed a crime, that tends to lead us to the conclusion that, hey, they committed the fucking crime, not “oh, goodness, the sworn testimony of 20 people that they broke down the locked door and found the defendant standing over the corpse with a bloody knife laughing and saying ‘Ha ha ha, you bastard! Take that!’ and his fingerprints were on the knife handle and the victim’s blood was on the blade plus there was that videotape showing him stabbing the victim 97 times–no, that’s all ‘too good to be true!’ There’s too much evidence! Him not guilty!”
I believe I’ve seen reports that known associates of bin Laden were photographed in an airport heading towards Boston. Also, I think that some of the identites of the hijackers are known to be linked with him. Of course, at this point, this is all handled rather carefully by the media, and those giving them the information.
Perhaps the government also has a bit more information they’re not telling us about, as it would be harmful to national security to reveal details about how much intelligence we gather. Keep in mind that the case against bin Laden has been building for only a couple days. Obviously the investigation will turn up more.
Also, bin Laden denied responsibility for the attack on the USS Cole:
Man, I thought I was a hot-headed reactionary until I read Akatsukami’s post.
Makes me seem like a liberal apologist. I wanted to get the facts first and then exact some serious retribution against the guilty parties.
Shit. I must be getting old.
Just another thought…I wonder what would happen if we took the guns out of the Taliban’s hands and then handed the bastards over to the general Afghani populace?
I’d like to personally send in registration cards to TERRORISTS-R-US for both Twitch and Akatsukami. Jesus Jumping Christ on a Pogo Stick, you two make me sick.
Hey Twitch, is there a particular reason you’re SUPPORTING a terrorist like bin Laden? All we’ve said so far is that he’s the number one suspect. I don’t see a problem with this. It doesn’t look to me like he’s about to be cannonized. Maybe you should read up on some of the rest of his history.
That doesn’t mean he did it, but it certainly means we should follow up, and that we have more than adequate evidence that he’s an EXCELLENT candidate.
As for the actions of the hijackers and passengers, show me evidence that they were torturing people, or that they had guns, or that the passengers had any reason to expect what ended up happening.
That’s completely correct as far as I’ve been able to tell, Irishman. For those who want history and examples of previous hijackings, please see:
And now, as for Akatsukami, you are a raving fucking lunatic. You sound like the same kind of person as the people that did this to us. Just the flip-side of the coin. I have nothing but sympathy for the Afghani people. They’ve already been through hell.
The Taliban makes me sick. But the ruling party does NOT define the culture of a country. Even proposing the idea of wiping out another culture is utterly against the American ideal. So look forward to getting your TERRORISTS-R-US card, buddy. It’s people like you that we need to get rid of.
And hey, Twitch, if I hear one more fucking crack from you about American oppression, I’m going to puke. If you’re so concerned about governments oppressing people, why did we have to break away from your government in order to get our freedom. And explain the whole India situation to me, too, please.
Editorial Comment: I would like to state, for the record, before the flames start, that I have NO problems with the UK government. I was simply trying to make a point to Twitch up there on his hobby horse.
