OK, here’s my question:
After a while up on the cross, Jesus said something along the lines of, “Father, why has’t thou forsaken me?” Now, if that’s true (and danged if I can remember for sure), did He really die for our sins, or did He die because HE had sinned by doubting God–The wages of sin being what they are? Because if He died by sinning, then He presumably went before His time and failed to finish His mission of saving our souls, and I think we all should be a little worried about that.
And Jesus also said “Forgive them, they know not what they do” and “Into thy hands I commend my spirit” (paraphrasing), so it’s not like his entire purpose was summed up in a single sentence of his.
No, actually, that is not quite all. The words are the first words of the twenty second Psalm. Read the rest, and you might reasses the view that Jesus had lost his faith.
1: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?
2: O my God, I cry by day, but thou dost not answer; and by night, but find no rest.
3: Yet thou art holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4: In thee our fathers trusted; they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5: To thee they cried, and were saved; in thee they trusted, and were not disappointed.
6: But I am a worm, and no man; scorned by men, and despised by the people.
7: All who see me mock at me, they make mouths at me, they wag their heads;
8: “He committed his cause to the LORD; let him deliver him, let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”
9: Yet thou art he who took me from the womb; thou didst keep me safe upon my mother’s breasts.
10: Upon thee was I cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me Thou hast been my God.
11: Be not far from me, for trouble is near and there is none to help.
12: Many bulls encompass me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
13: they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion.
14: I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax, it is melted within my breast;
15: my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; thou dost lay me in the dust of death.
16: Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet –
17: I can count all my bones – they stare and gloat over me;
18: they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots.
19: But thou, O LORD, be not far off! O thou my help, hasten to my aid!
20: Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog!
21: Save me from the mouth of the lion, my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild oxen!
22: I will tell of thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee:
23: You who fear the LORD, praise him! all you sons of Jacob, glorify him, and stand in awe of him, all you sons of Israel!
24: For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; and he has not hid his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him.
25: From thee comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
26: The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live for ever!
27: All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
28: For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
29: Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.
30: Posterity shall serve him; men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation,
31: and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, that he has wrought it.
Good post Tris. My understanding is that God cannot look upon sin. The moment that Jesus said this, ‘why has thou forsaken me’ is the moment that he took the sin of the world upon himself, thus at that moment God had to look away from the sin. He bore our sins on the cross. When he died, he gave his life so those sins could be forgiven. This is the teachings of my church on this matter. Others may not agree.
No. It means that Jesus atoned for all sin-past, present, and future- by His death. All sin, forever, is forgiven. That’s why Jesus, through his death and resurrection, provided reconciliation between God and man.
sneevil, i think you missed the point of ben’s post. if god must look away when sin is presented, then is god looking away when i sin?
which is actually a really good question. for instance, if hell is separation from god and his graces, and hell is the result of sin on earth, then are we separated from god here on earth when we sin?
Well… we’re starting to get into some very murkey teritory here. For one, did jesus take the “sins” from man, or did he take the consequences of those sins?
If a person accepts the Trinity then it’s extremely difficult to say what went on with the crucifixion. In fact, to my knoweldge, there is no church statnce one way or the other on exactly took place there (namely how it worked) merely we only know(accept) and agree that jesus took the conesquences of the sins (or sin, as it is it’s own conesquence) upon himself.
Now many would argue that he took all of time’s sin’s in that single moment. Any sin that a person gave up to him in the future was taken.
The common understanding is that God can’t be a part of any sin, as God is perfect and sin would mar this. However because of jesus, people have a chance to get rid of their sins. How this is done, tends to be aruged about.
But I would say that it’s you who is forsaking God, if you choose to hold on to your sin and not offer it up to chirst. In this understanding you don’t have to be perfect. And you’re not invisible to god, he just can’t take you in. Rather you need to accept his grace.
If you don’t, you’re still in his sight. You just can’t be a part of his kingdom.
(this is just one way of looking at it. It’s not even that I completely belive it…)
But doesn’t that have to make God some sort of time traveler? God has always been willing to forgive sins – just ask a Jew. I don’t see what that has to do with Jesus. Sure, he opened the way back to the Garden and the Tree of Life for those who follow him. No reason he had to die to accomplish that, though.
Not really. It can make him outside of time though. It causes a theologian a headache. Probably with God is that he created the rules, he’s beyond them. He doesn’t (in many interpretations) reside in time, he merely created it.
I think that is a dangerous interpretation. There’s nothing inherently wrong with it, but people use that to draw twisted conclusions – such as:
Jesus died for my sins. Therefore, I can just go on sinning – everyone goes to heaven anyway.
Everything is predetermined anyway, so it doesn’t matter what I do.
There is nothing random in the universe – so I’m not (humbly) the result of a random sperm egg coupling, but am rather (pridefully) what all of creation has been leading up to until this point, and as such, God does not apply to me.
etc., etc… All manner of heresies come from this belief. Some people think that Jesus had psychic powers for example, and use this unfounded idea to twist his teachings around to mean quite the opposite of what he clearly meant if he hadn’t had psychic powers…
And although I hate to go to that Old Test. God of fire and brimstone for my support, God clearly apologizes for mistakes and changes his mind in those stories – something a being which lived outside of time would not be subject to.
We are reconciled to God through Jesus who bore our sins. Jesus is our mediator with God. When we ask for forgiveness of our sins, it is in the name of Jesus. Now the tricky part is faith. You are forgiven your sins, but that doesn’t mean you go out and sin without consequences. In order to accept Jesus as your Saviour, you must accept him as your Saviour. In doing this your sins are forgiven, but as a father chastises his children when they do wrong, so are the children of God chastised.
So once you become a follower of Jesus, you face trials and tribulations to make you stronger in your walk. It is so much more than can be described on this board.
But salvation is free. And no you won’t be perfect by a long shot.
I don’t usually discuss religion because for every point made, someone can find a loophole. Faith plays a most important part. You can’t explain everything to everyone.
[John 2:13] The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
[John 2:14] In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers at their business.
[John 2:15] And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.
[John 2:16] And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; you shall not make my Father’s house a house of trade.”
[John 2:17] His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for thy house will consume me.”
[John 2:18] The Jews then said to him, “What sign have you to show us for doing this?”
[John 2:19.1] Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
[John 2:20] The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"
[John 2:21] But he spoke of the temple of his body.
[John 2:22] When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this; and they believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.
