MODERATOR COMMENT: Yes, I’m glad for the information about copyrights etc. However, I agree 100% with Alan Smithee – back to main topic at hand and comments on the column. Enough of this aside.
It is. There are a lot of people who aren’t very rational, however. All it takes for some people to be deemed experts is coming to a conclusion that other people want to believe.
Hmm, there is that pesky little issue of the Jesus story coming up several times in history, and being based on astronomical movements. But, yeah, sure, I’m totally sure that piece of fabric just happened to cover the face of a particular person who might not have existed. It’s amazing what people believe when they want to believe something!
It is with horrified fascination that I want to know more about these multiple astronomical movements.
Heck, a definition of “astronomical movement” would be nice as a starter.
This is, I believe, a reference to the *Zeitgeist *film and similar lines of thought that claim Christianity is a co-option of solar worship and Egyptian mythology. As presented in the film, these conclusions are so shoddily presented as to be not even wrong.
The Gospels present the story of a very, very, extraordinary mind. As with the old joke about the Iliad and the Odyssey, if it wasn’t Jesus, it must have been someone else by the same name.
You used “very” two too many times.
For all we know Jesus was extraordinary in the same way a speech by a member of Congress is extraordinary after it gets edited in the Congressional Record.
“I don’t see what’s so great about Hamlet—it’s just a lot of famous quotations.”
This is what happened after the Big Bang, which as everyone knows was simply the nothingness being caught in the act of farting. So the Big Bang was the propellant, while the astronomical movement provided the matter.
Stephen Hawking has nothing on me. 
Jesus has been written about endlessly, his writings considered reasonable, practical and simply illustrated, with profound impact. His existence has not been disputed by the available historical data from the time he was living on earth. This is not to say that he has not been exploited for greedy self serving purposes as well, in extreme and ignorantly disgusting ways. Look at the crusades, the many forced conversions by governments for their own purposes.
The group that clung to his teachings contained in the bible, did so because these 1st century followers quite often had firsthand knowledge, were healed or witnessed healings by his apostles. These were called members of “The Way”. They were not materialistic, took no money for their ministry, showed love to the death for fellow believers (died rather than betray their beliefs when persecuted) and did not participate in politics or war. They usually met in private homes, and were not involved in building impressive edifices. It was about a simple, profoundly effective way of living that meant having a spiritual relationship with our creator. Not the super hip saying that they were spiritual people, but that meant a peaceful and happy life with a clean conscience, quite freeing.
On the other hand, the Catholic Church did not come about for many many years, and as a state sanctioned religion, served a different purpose. The church was building emotionally tied financial support for what might be essentially termed a business. There were many very well intentioned people that grew up in it, but at this point many can see that it supports a program of brainwashing. The saying “Power corrupts & absolute power corrupts absolutely” can be aptly applied to the groups not sticking to the authority of Christ’s model, statements, way of life, based on the bible. Obviously anyone can argue that I am putting out my opinion, so be it. But the record speaks for itself - humans are short-lived and lack the perspective of our designer and creator. We are ignorant, our designer and creator is not. Why argue the point? The human genome project, the search for the origin of man that shows dna records supporting just 2 original parents to us all, these support intelligent design. The possibility of life coming about by chance is mathematically impossible. We are complex creatures, and our interdependent web of life is so sophisticated as to baffle the most intelligent creatures.
About the shroud - what is physical is temporary, the message Christ left us is what is important. What’s in a piece of cloth? Can the cloth cause us to change our thinking and put it in line with the model Christ left us? I think not.
What is your source of information for what you write about the beginning of Christianity? Can you provide a cite?
Wikipedia has history on the beginnings of Christianity as very partially quoted here:
Christianity emerged in the Levant (now Palestine and Israel) in the mid-1st century AD. Christianity spread initially from Jerusalem throughout the Near East, into places such as Syria, Assyria, Mesopotamia, Phoenicia, Asia Minor, Jordan and Egypt. In the 4th century it was successively adopted as the state religion by Armenia in 301, Georgia in 319,[1][2] the Aksumite Empire in 325,[3][4] and the Roman Empire in 380.
There are also some great references that you could find at jw.org if you are really interested. Several videos reference historocity…The writers Josephus and others within the era are quoted.
I like referencing the most familiar such as Matthew Chapter 5 and also Chapter 11, discussing traits of a Christian, and especially what is said regarding those wise in their own eyes. As a child of a scientist, who was also the child of a scientist, I have learned to appreciate how much wisdom is lost when we think too much of ourselves.
I probably will not post or reply to any more on this. Thanks for listening.
FYI: jw.org = Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I believe this is the stuff Czarcasm wanted a cite for, not the general history of Christianity.
Ignoring all the witnessing, this claim is false. You may be thinking of the so-called “Mitochondrial Eve” and “Y-chromosonal Adam”. The thing is, the age estimates for those two are all over the map, and they do not justify there only being two single ancestors of humanity.
In fact, they may not have even been contemporaries.
A 60,000 year window of possible overlap does not make a strong argument for contemporaneousness.
Please show your math.
You know what else baffles most intelligent creatures? The popularity of the Kardashians.
Irishman, I believe the she/he has dropped the internet equivalent of a Chick Tract and gone on.
Well, as you correctly noted, a JW tract - he’s gotta record those hours somehow.
Moderator note: Czarcasm and simster, let’s please avoid the personal insults. No warning, since those are border-line – you’ll argue that it’s about the post, not the poster – but putting one toe across a fuzzy line is not nice behavior. Cool it, OK?
I’m not expecting a return, but did wish to address those points nevertheless.
Hi,
The original post by “Cecil Adams” states in part here:
Doubts about the historicity of Christ did not surface until the 18th century…
Since Cecil Adams he is the most intelligent creature and knows everything, he did not have any references, none being needed. I didn’t expect you guys, and I am female, by the way, to leave me alone, but you do help to sharpen the pen and keep the brain working. Thanks for that, and as I said, this debate could go on endlessly. I do not want to debate. I want to know and truly LOVE, APPRECIATE our creator. That is a full time job.
Jehovah’s Witnesses have references upon references for statements made in the literature advocating that the bible. I sent you to the website to see if you really cared about that. Going subject by subject, crossreferenced to find all scriptures on a particular subject, makes it much easier to understand the theme as well as the general gyst of this compiled work. There will always be those who simply do not want to go there. That’s the choice free will gives us. I do not want to just go for the dazzle.
By way of illustration, many of us do not like generic, homogenized food that is unrecognizable from the actual sweet fruits, veggies, milk, honey, etc… People who know and love real food tend to like earthly delights that are simple, recognizable and pure in taste. It’s the same with the message of the bible.
Job talks about the circle of the earth, being hung opon nothing. Simple, but if you use common sense reasoning, knowing what we now know, this biblical person told us that the earth is round, and is held in place (amazingly) by gravity. He was speaking to an agricultural society that did not need any more explanation. They lived in a different time and place in history.
At this particular point in mankind’s history, the available data in science and math of intelligent design are quite enormous and to the point. The idea that we came about by chance requires such a mathmatically huge number of chance happinstances as to be impossible by current professional standards.
I refer you to WELL REFERENCED book that is put out by Jehovah’s Witnesses, current edition in 2006, Life—How Did It Get Here? By Evolution or by Creation? chapter 4 titled Could life get here by chance?" - page 38-53. There are also videos that constantly rotate in and out on the website that talk quite clearly about the awesome universe, not the Kardashians, who I certainly expect most of us already have way too much information about. tsk, tisk, TMI, TMI, right? Put the blinders on at the checkout aisle!
Charles Darwin did not expect people to view his theories and his interest in promoting his own ideas as a sort of gospel. It is quite commendable that you want to have believable proofs, and this information is available to you by visiting our site or and looking at the references contained there.
I am sure the staff of Straight Dope, a site I view as humorous in addition to whatever else it is, is quite prolific as well in its’ references.
Czarcasm, with the catchy name, I have not posted over 35,000 times and have other things to do which for me take precidence. But I do understand that you are all expressing yourselves, and each are going to zero in on whatever floats your boat.
I believe I did answer your query which was about the basis of statements showing the early Christians adhered to “The Way”, which was while the Romans ruling over Israel were still killing them rather than finding another way to cause havoc and apostacy (drawing away) from Christ’s unadulterated teachings.
You can look to Acts 9:1, 2 to see that Saul, a Jewish Lawyer and Roman citizen who was the apostle Paul before his dramatic vision, blindness and conversion to Christianity, looked to find any who belonged to “The Way” to murder them.
In John 14:6, 7Jesus said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. In addition to the main meahing, This statenent also references the name his disciples came to be known by AT THAT TIME PERIOD - DURING AND IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING HIS DEATH. After his APOSTLES died out, there were many sects, ideas, wolves in sheeps clothing coming in to mislead and be misled, changing agendas, corrupting them.
I really thank the moderator, and hope for all of you that you find the peace I have.