Did Jesus really exist? And what's with the Shroud of Turin? November 22, 1985 is incorrect because

Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
61

XT, Wikipedia is a very bad source to get ur information from , and we both know that it’s extremely unreliable and anti religious anyways .

As I showed there were serious problems with the 1988 c14 tests as it was Ray Rogers peer reviewed chemical analysis that invalidates it .

As far as the 2013 tests they were done by orofessor Giulio Fanti and I can’t comment either way until submits his research for peer review and proves the chain of evidence that shows that what he tested were actually fibers from the shroud of turin.

Rogers is an agnostic so he can’t be accused of being pro shroud or pro religion.

62

What’s amazing is that they do so with no proof of his existence.

Here’s a good discussionof the problem.

63

So the Shroud was actually the burial cloth of Santa?

64

In what way?

65

Wait, what?

66

Cloths , on the contrary, they believe he existed because the historical evidence is overwhelming . By your criteria no one in ancient history exists if you apply this criteria to any ancient historical figure .

67

I can’t say that 100% but the evidence is strong fir authenticity.

68

This is a joke right cadet?:smiley:
We are not talking about copying it , we are talking about replicating it with all of its unique features . I can give u a clue , you can always bring up the Luigi replica which it would be able to debunk within a few minutes .

69

In its description if his passion and crucifixion as well as the cloth.
I hope no one is going to bring up the fact that in the book of john it cloths and nit a single cloth . Remember the clue here is that the book of John was written in koine greek not in American English .

It’s the same thing that happens when someone reads genesis in english and cokes away thinking that it says that God creates the world in 6 days when the word for day in Hebrew is YOM, which can mean literal day or indefinite time period.

Here is a link to a great article that talks about this

70

Oops I meant Christ , not Christmas . This iPad mini keyboard stinks lol

71

In what specific ways does the image fit the gospel description of the passion and crucifixion of Christ to the letter?

72

These kinds of comparisons of the evidence for Jesus’s existence with that of Alexander, or Caesar, or any of another famous historical figures, are common–but based on ignorance of the evidence that does actually exist.

For example, w.r.t. Alexander:

We have contemporaneous texts mentioning him, for example the Babylonian Royal Diary which is a day to day record of important events that was kept as events were happening.

There is also another contemporaneous document recording Alexander’s arrival in Bactria at some point.

We have numerous references to contemporaneous works about him, written by people personally acquainted with him. These works are lost, but the references to these works give positive evidence of his existence of a kind we lack w.r.t. Jesus.

There remain physical artifacts depicting him by name within 15 years of his death.

There is a great deal that we do know about history and politics and literature subsequent to his dates which would be difficult to explain on the hypothesis that there was no Alexander. This is not true to nearly the same degree for the no-Jesus hypothesis.

73

I’ll post the link again

And we also have the gsoepl of John talking about another piece of cloth which is the head cloth in Jewish crucifixion tradition was wrapped around a a persons head as soon as they are found dead on the cross. This is to spare any Jewish onlooker from having to look at the face of a victim that’s been badly beaten in that area .

The head cloth is in oveido Spain and it’s called the sudarium of oveido.
Why do people think it’s the head cloth that’s lying by itself as described in johns gospel.

Well the worlds for most expert on the sudarium is marc guscin . Him and his spanish team of scientists (including Duke emeritus Alan Whanger ) overlaid the sudarium on top of the head image of the shroud of turin the blood stains are a near perfect match with 125 congruent matching points. In. Court of law it takes. 25 to 55 congruent matches fir a positive is . They were even able to measure the length if the nose on both relics to 8 centimeters . That is a true middle eastern nose (just as I have lol).

The sudarium’s history is undisputed historically going back to 614 ad where it was said to be hidden in the cave of saint mark and moved to Spain ahead of an invading persona army. Remarkably the pollen samples found on the sudarium match the historic trip that it was said to be taken through with matching pollen samples found from each country on the trip
This link will show u the detailed study guscin and his team does on the sudarium
https://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm
“”
According to this history, the sudarium was in Palestine until shortly before the year 614, when Jerusalem was attacked and conquered by Chosroes II, who was king of Persia from 590 to 628. It was taken away to avoid destruction in the invasion, first to Alexandria by the presbyter Philip, then across the north of Africa when Chosroes conquered Alexandria in 616. The sudarium entered Spain at Cartagena, along with people who were fleeing from the Persians. The bishop of Ecija, Fulgentius, welcomed the refugees and the relics, and surrendered the chest, or ark, to Leandro, bishop of Seville. He took it to Seville, where it spent some years.
Saint Isidore was later bishop of Seville, and teacher of Saint Ildefonso, who was in turn appointed bishop of Toledo. When he left Seville to take up his post there, he took the chest with him. It stayed in Toledo until the year 718. It was then taken further north to avoid destruction at the hands of the Muslims, who conquered the majority of the Iberian peninsula at the beginning of the eighth century. It was first kept in a cave that is now called Monsacro, ten kilometres from Oviedo. King Alfonso II had a special chapel built for the chest, called the “Cámara Santa”, later incorporated into the cathedral.

The key date in the history of the sudarium is the 14th March 1075, when the chest was officially opened in the presence of King Alfonso VI, his sister Doña Urraca, and Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar, better known as El Cid. A list was made of the relics that were in the chest, and which included the sudarium. In the year 1113, the chest was covered with silver plating, on which there is an inscription inviting all Christians to venerate this relic which contains the holy blood. The sudarium has been kept in the cathedral at Oviedo ever since.“”"
""3: Coincidence with the Shroud

The sudarium alone has revealed sufficient information to suggest that it was in contact with the face of Jesus after the crucifixion. However, the really fascinating evidence comes to light when this cloth is compared to the Shroud of Turin.

The first and most obvious coincidence is that the blood on both cloths belongs to the same group, namely AB.

The length of the nose through which the pleural oedema fluid came onto the sudarium has been calculated at eight centimetres, just over three inches. This is exactly the same length as the nose on the image of the Shroud.

If the face of the image on the Shroud is placed over the stains on the sudarium, perhaps the most obvious coincidence is the exact fit of the stains with the beard on the face. As the sudarium was used to clean the man’s face, it appears that it was simply placed on the face to absorb all the blood, but not used in any kind of wiping movement.

A small stain is also visible proceeding from the right hand side of the man’s mouth. This stain is hardly visible on the Shroud, but Dr. John Jackson, using the VP-8 and photo enhancements has confirmed its presence.

The thorn wounds on the nape of the neck also coincide perfectly with the bloodstains on the Shroud.

Dr. Alan Whanger applied the Polarized Image Overlay Technique to the sudarium, comparing it to the image and bloodstains on the Shroud. The frontal stains on the sudarium show seventy points of coincidence with the Shroud, and the rear side shows fifty. The only possible conclusion is that the Oviedo sudarium covered the same face as the Turin Shroud.
4: The Temporal Aspect the sudarium before the Shroud

The sudarium has no image, and none of the facial stains of dried or drying blood visible on the Shroud, especially the stain on the forehead in the shape of an inverted three. The stains on the sudarium were made by a less viscous mixture.

This, together with the fact that the fingers which held the sudarium to Jesus’ nose have left their mark, point to a short temporal use of the cloth and eliminate the possibility of its contact with the body after burial.

Jewish tradition demands that if the face of a dead person was in any way disfigured, it should be covered with a cloth to avoid people seeing this unpleasant sight. This would certainly have been the case with Jesus, whose face was covered in blood from the injuries produced by the crown of thorns and swollen from falling and being struck.

It seems that the sudarium was first used before the dead body was taken down from the cross and discarded when it was buried.

This fits in with what we learn from John’s gospel, which tells us that the sudarium was rolled up in a place by itself.
5: Conclusions

The studies on the sudarium and the comparison of this cloth with the Shroud are just one of the many branches of science which point to both having covered the dead body of Jesus. The history of the Oviedo cloth is well documented, and the conclusions of this for the dating of the Shroud need no further comment.“”

There is more detail covered in the study that I’m not posting as it will make the post too long, but u guys can study it in your own time.

74

Just to have one foot grounded in reality, here is the whole of John 20, 3-7, which is supposedly the gospel description of the passion and crucifixion of Christ that fits the image to the letter:
[Quote=Bible]
3 So Peter set out with the other disciple to go to the tomb.
4 They ran together, but the other disciple, running faster than Peter, reached the tomb first;
5 he bent down and saw the linen cloths lying on the ground, but did not go in.
6 Simon Peter, following him, also came up, went into the tomb, saw the linen cloths lying on the ground
7 and also the cloth that had been over his head; this was not with the linen cloths but rolled up in a place by itself.
[/quote]

If there is some other description in the gospel that you are referring to, please tell me.

75

Remember also that Alexander was the most famous man of those times , yet Jesus was a leader if a very tiny sect .and yet some of the writings of the gospel can be dated very early like Paul’s letter to the Galatians.
https://bible.org/article/date-and-destination-galatians
,
This is why almost all contemporary mainstream scholars whether atheist , agnostic or Christian believe that Jesus exists. Remember folks that Christianity was an almost unheard if religion that was very small in the first century. To make Jesus out to be a very famous historic figure in the first century is just not realistic.
Even the Jesus seminarian group which is considered on the fringe accepts the existence of Jesus.

76

Czar sam if you had read the link I provides you from stephen. Jones blog you would have seen that the weird cloths mentioned in this verse is othonio in koine greek which is collective singular not the plural that it appears to be in English.

Let me post the specific translation

Here are quotes from Shroud literature, supporting that there is no contradiction between the gospels accounts of Jesus’ burial (including John 20) and the Shroud of Turin:
“… othonia refers to all the grave clothes associated with Jesus’ burial-the large sindon (the shroud), as well as the smaller strips of linen that bound the jaw, the hands, and the feet …”:

"The Grave Clothes. Another issue concerns the difference in the words chosen by the gospel writers to describe the grave clothes that Jesus was wrapped in. The synoptic evangelists say that he was wrapped in a sindon, a Greek word meaning a linen cloth which could be used for any purpose, including burial. John, on the other hand, says Jesus was wrapped in othonia, a plural Greek word of uncertain meaning. Othonia is sometimes translated as `strips of linen,’ a meaning that would seem to be incompatible with a fourteen-foot-long shroud covering the front and back of the body.

However, it is likely that othonia refers to all the grave clothes associated with Jesus’ burial-the large sindon (the shroud), as well as the smaller strips of linen that bound the jaw, the hands, and the feet. This interpretation of othonia is supported by Luke’s use of the word. He says (23:53) that Jesus was wrapped in a sindon, but later (24:12) that Peter saw the othonia lying in the tomb after Jesus’ resurrection. Luke, then, uses othonia as a plural term for all the grave clothes, including the sindon. Furthermore, as seen earlier, Jewish burial customs do not support the idea that John’s othonia refers to the wrappings of a mummy. Jews did not wrap up their dead like mummies, but laid them in shrouds, as indicated by the Gospel of John, the Essene burial procedures, and the Code of Jewish Law. John himself insists that Jewish customs were followed Jesus’ case (19:40). Thus, there is good scriptural evidence that Jesus was laid in the tomb wrapped in a shroud. Therefore, the gospels refer to the grave clothes in both the singular and the plural.
When a single cloth is spoken of, it is obviously the linen sheet itself. However, since Luke (or early tradition) had no difficulty in using the plural (24:12) to describe what he earlier referred to in the singular (23:53), the term clothes' may still refer to a single piece of material. On the other hand, if more than one piece is meant, clothes’ is most probably a reference to both the sheet and the additional strips which were bound around the head, wrists, and feet, as indicated in John 11:44 (cf. John 19:40). Interestingly enough, bands in these same locations can be discerned on the Shroud of Turin. At any rate, it is a reasonable conclusion that at least one major linen sheet is being referred to in the gospels." (Stevenson, K.E. & Habermas, G.R., “Verdict on the Shroud,” 1981, pp.48-49. Emphasis original).
“… othonia is to be understood as a collective singular,' just like the English word clothes’ could refer to one article of clothing, or two or three or four”:

The key here Czar is that when going back to the original koine greek that John was written in you find that othonia is a collective singular which can’t be known if you are just reading these verses from the gospel of John in English.
When you dig deep into the shroud you won’t find any problems between it and the shroud .

Hope this helps :slight_smile:

77

And remember also Czar that the other synaptic gospels refer to the burial cloth as a sindon which is one major piece of cloth basically agreeing with the collective singular that othonia means .the shroud is like one big jigsaw puzzle, and if you don’t go deep into shroud studies you will miss these finer details.

Remember also that the shroud itself corrects almost all medieval depictions of Jesus in area like the nail in the palms used in almost all medieval art work. The shroud depicts the nail through the wrist and this is anatomically correct because a nail through the palms doesn’t support a full human adult male as was shown in different studies .

You also have the crown if thorns and a king in those times wore a crown that was shaped like a miser covering his whole top of the head and not a ringlet as depicted in medieval artwork. The shroud head wounds cover the whole head and not just a circular pattern around the head .

These are the finer little details that are missed by many anti authentic shroud sites , nit all but most.

78

And remember also Czar that the other synaptic gospels refer to the burial cloth as a sindon which is one major piece of cloth basically agreeing with the collective singular that othonia means .the shroud is like one big jigsaw puzzle, and if you don’t go deep into shroud studies you will miss these finer details.

Remember also that the shroud itself corrects almost all medieval depictions of Jesus in area like the nail in the palms used in almost all medieval art work. The shroud depicts the nail through the wrist and this is anatomically correct because a nail through the palms doesn’t support a full human adult male as was shown in different studies .

You also have the crown if thorns and a king in those times wore a crown that was shaped like a miser covering his whole top of the head and not a ringlet as depicted in medieval artwork. The shroud head wounds cover the whole head and not just a circular pattern around the head .

These are the finer little details that are missed by many anti authentic shroud sites , nit all but most.

79

And remember also Czar that the other synaptic gospels refer to the burial cloth as a sindon which is one major piece of cloth basically agreeing with the collective singular that othonia means .the shroud is like one big jigsaw puzzle, and if you don’t go deep into shroud studies you will miss these finer details.

Remember also that the shroud itself corrects almost all medieval depictions of Jesus in area like the nail in the palms used in almost all medieval art work. The shroud depicts the nail through the wrist and this is anatomically correct because a nail through the palms doesn’t support a full human adult male as was shown in different studies .

You also have the crown if thorns and a king in those times wore a crown that was shaped like a miser covering his whole top of the head and not a ringlet as depicted in medieval artwork. The shroud head wounds cover the whole head and not just a circular pattern around the head .
Agnostic art historian from Cambridge Thomas’s de Wesselow even agrees that the image is not indicative of any art in history and he believe that the shroud is authentic but he doesn’t believe. It was created by the resurrection.
He also wrote a good book on this called the sign

These are the finer little details that are missed by many anti authentic shroud sites , not all but most.

Czar ask urself why this is so if these anti authentic sites are really unbiased and after the truth if the shroud.

Agnostic lawyer mark Antonacci was a happy go lucky agnostic who had no need fir religion in his life except fir one small problem, his Christian girlfriend who he kept on getting into arguments over religion with.
One day he had it up to here with her and decided to on a quest to prove to her that Christianity and by extension all religions were fairy tales , but he did t know where to start .

He was on lunch break one day and he saw a picture if the shroud on the front cover of a magazine while in line and he got very angry and tries to ignore it, but he couldn’t so he picked it up and looked at it.

He then picked the shroud as his first target to debunk.
25 years later not only could he not debunk it but the evidence for the shroud convinced Antonacci and he converted to Christianity.
He also wrote a book depicting his journey and research into the shroud called the resurrection of the shroud .

80

My books (sadly I’m at a friend’s house right now) The History Of Torture and Pannati’s Extraordinary Endings Of Practically Everything And Everybody disagree with you on this- and they have cites.

If I recall correctly, the Romans were just wild for crucifixion. They use t-shaped crossed, Tau crosses, Y’s and even H’s (the victim was hung by an arm and a leg). Even going by just the New Testament, Jesus is crucified between two thieves. If crucifixion was so damn rare, what are two other people doing already crucified?