Basically there in the thread title. Was watching ABC and they had one of their news break thingies and said something to the effect that Obama just reversed the position of the last couple of days wrt prosecution of ex-Administration officials concerning torture.
My question is…is that correct? If so, what do you think about that? What are the likely ramifications? How high up could/would this go in the old administration if correct?
I said…I saw…it on the news…so that’s why…I ASKED…the question…
I also…don’t have…access…to a computer…atm…so if you want…a link…feel free to do a search…
I’m perfectly willing to find out that the ABC report I just watched is full of shit. That’s why I’m asking…and figured it could devolve into a debate, thus my question here in GD.
Obama closed the door, then reopened the door. ArchiveGuy is correct on tradition of DOJ as independent, but this is not law, just tradition. As outrageous as what Nixon did with the Saturday Night Massacre (paled in comparison to Bush’s round the clock torturing) it was not in my opinion illegal, but rather corrupt in trying to end prosecutions against friends.
The charges of torture and death against the DOJ attorneys and various members of government are among the most serious abuses of power possible (along with starting a war based on lies) and are also crimes. If there is probable cause, investigations should commence.
Excuse me. Usually the OP provides the salient information for a debate in GD – and I had no way of knowing you were without a means to do that when you posted.
Not having the factual data behind this (as opposed to the analytical stuff that Archive Guy provided), I’m going to hazard a guess that neither Obama nor his DOJ people actually reversed themselves on this. There was a very careful and nuanced statement made, that people who acted in good faith in accordance with legal memoes prepared by DOJ staff would not be prosecuted. In short, if you ask “Are these orders legal?” and the chief law enforcement officer of the country has his staff tell you specifically that they are if carried out thus and so, then you can’t be prosecuted for following a legal order.
Tht does not mean that someone using the memoes as a pretext, going beyond or in directions not contemplated in the memoes, etc., cannot be prosecuted, nor that those who prepard the memoes and/or directed that the interrogations take place, cannot be prosecuted.
But the news reports conflated the first announcement into a statement that “We’re not going to prosecute – period” and anything contradicting that, they will report as a reversal. IMO, it’s nothing of the sort.
I could be wrong in this analysis – it depends on the actual facts of what was said. But I’ve seen similar cases where the press erroneously generalizes and then portrays an action as a flip-flop when it fits exactly what was said the first time, in completely different circumstances. Ao I am hazarding the guess it may well be true here as well.
Except that you can be prosecuted for following an order, even a “legal” order. The Nuremberg trials proved this. The movieJudgment At Nuremberg was a thoughtful movie that popularized the point nicely.
Obama is a lawyer. A really good lawyer. He’s not going to say anything absolute that is not absolutely absolute. And no politician should say anything absolute, either. It ties his hands. You wonder why so many politicians started out as lawyers? This is why. And it’s not a bad thing. Dubya was not a lawyer and said and did things that no lawyer would say or do, and had to stick to them because he couldn’t find the trapdoor that a god lawyer would’ve left.
I come from a family full of good lawyers. I know there should always be a trapdoor, even if I haven’t found it yet.
ETA: And as an engineer raised with lawyers, I won’t go out on limb about squat. Will the Sun rise tomorrow? Though past performance usually predicts future performance, there is still a chance it won’t. And define “rise.”
My memory of the events has been that Obama initially said that he would not seek trials of the lawyers or the CIA operatives.
Later, when asked the same point, again, he said that it was up to the Attorney General to make any determinations about future trials and that he (Obama) did not want to prejudice any actions by making premature statements. He also indicated that he did not feel that this was a good time for Congress to be opening up a bunch of hearings into the issues.
He has made no claim that Holder is not investigating actions of the previous administration. He has simply said that he is not calling for prosecutions, since that is Holder’s call to make.
The only “reversal” is in the minds of the news guys who need stories.
Obama appeared to be shading away from prosecutions earlier and I agree the door is more open here. But Archive Guy’s point is well taken - it’s not his call alone and shouldn’t be.
I don’t entirely agree. I think Greenwald (from the link ArchiveGuy posted has it right. ISTM that the president made a nuanced statement that was meant to convey that his Administration wouldn’t be prosecuting people. Of course, because he’s a careful speaker, Obama didn’t completely rule it out, but I don’t think this was meant as just theatre. Because it’s bad theatre – this reversal (plainly what it is, and most likely driven by complaints at Justice that the all voted for this guy because he said he would stop such shenannigans) makes Obama look wishy-washy.
That’s my reading of it as well - Obama’s statement left room to prosecute those who went below and beyond the parameters set out by the Bush administration’s lawyers (which, for example, waterboarding one person 183 times in a month did). I doubt we’ll see a comprehensive Nuremberg-esque investigation; rather, enough of the worst perpetrators will get punished to satisfy honor. Sadly, I don’t see Cheney being among these (alas).
I kind of thought that Obama’s initial position was that “CIA guys following orders wouldn’t be prosecuted”. People logically extended from that that the administration wouldn’t be leaning on the bottom-level guys to get them to roll over on the upper-level ones.
Maybe they think they’ve found a way around it? Maybe they’ve decided that people want heads to roll for the pure evil committed by their government?