92% of Egyptians view Israel as an enemy: BBC NEWS | Middle East | Denmark 'Egypt's foe', says poll
Is it really that hard to comprehend why supporting someones enemy pisses them off?
Quick question: do you actually contend that Egypt will, any time soon, revoke the peace treaty? Or are your claims about “enemy” status mere rhetoric?
And yah, the infotainment piece you linked to (not the actual poll, I might point out) put freakin’ Denmark at the top of the list, too. That vile and staunch enemy of Egypt, amirte??
That Denmark rated as highly hostile to Egypt should show you a little bit about how rational the respondents to that survey were, and what impact actual western actions had on the degree of antipathy.
And the survey didn’t even view Israel as an enemy as you claim, but as a nation that was “hostile to” Egypt. Numerous nations are hostile to the United States but people would, justly, be pointed out as being nutters if they claimed that nations like, say, Saudi Arabia which exports one of the most virulently anti-American doctrines on the planet is an enemy nation. Or Venezuela? They’re our enemies, right?
And, as you didn’t actually link to the poll, we can’t look at its survey methodology, question phrasing, data analysis, etc… Which is, of course, interesting as it was the Egyptian government that conducted the poll and still uses Israel as a convenient scapegoat form time to time but still maintains its peace treaty quite well, showing the divide between rhetoric and belief. It was also conducted during the Israel-Hezbollah war or 2006, something that might have skewed the data points just a tiny little bit.
Of course, the actual truth is that Israel is not Egypt’s enemy, Israel has a peace treaty with Egypt and is not, in any way, its “enemy”.
In any case, the actual facts of the matter show that Jordan and Egypt are both at peace with Israel and do not actually consider it to be an enemy state, at all. Nor are they going to violate the peace treaties and make Israel an actual enemy nation any time soon. At least not in the context that “enemy nation” is recognizable. Turkey has gone even further than mere peace and has had joint military exercises with Israel.
Of course, none of that changes the fact that Malthus didn’t use a strawman and you did claim that Israel was the number one issue in the relationship with virtually all of the ME nations and that you were arguing against his claim that “Israel isn’t the underlying cause of anti-American sentiment in the Middle East”, so ah well.
I can speak from experience and with a strong interest in Turkey that the level of animosity Turks have felt toward the US has little to do with our support for Israel.
Although I cannot comment on the rest of the Middle East, Turkish anger toward us really did begin to rise with our invasion of Iraq in 2003. Let me take you through an anecdotal and off topic series of visits to Turkey: I first visited Turkey in 2001. While there, I met a woman who absolutely loved Clinton (she was very jealous of Monica, j/k) and most Turks I met remembered him kissing a baby or something after the earthquake in 1999. Our popularity polls were quite high at the time and people were very sorry for the USA during 9/11. My next visit was in 2002 and by this time talk of invading Iraq was in full force. My future father-in-law told me a joke about Osama bin Laden beating George Bush. He thought it was funny and I took it as being a bit hostile. My most eye-opening visit was in 2007. I had visited a small pin factory where a Turk and Kurd happened to be working. The Kurd loved America and kept telling me how wise he thought George Washington was. The Turk called all Americans murderers for what we were doing in Iraq.
What might explain this change in attitude? Not Israel. There are several other reasons for their anger during this time period. Here are a few of the grievances I read about in Turkish news or heard from Turkish friends in the time frame from 2002-2009: America treated the Turks like servants who would do whatever we wanted with respect to invading Iraq, we capture 5 Turkish soldiers in Iraq and blindfold them (later becomes the subject of a widely popular movie), freed up the PKK in Northern Iraq to continually attack across the border, supplied American rifles to the PKK, increased rhetoric on Armenian genocide bills, and have generally showed little concern for Turkish interests in the region.
Anger toward us is based entirely on our policies, or their perception of our policies, toward them. This is probably true of any group in the region.
Did I ever contend that, or anything close to it?
It doesn’t matter if Egyptians have a rational reason to consider Israel an enemy (oops! Hostile), the important point is that they think they are an enemy.
Way to go Captain Nitpick. Thanks for pointing out that they asked if Israel was hostile instead of an enemy because they are so fucking different.
What are you talking about.
He absolutely did use a strawman:
I never ever said that “all the US’s image troubles” are from Israel. Hence, he is arguing against something that I never offered as a position, i.e. a strawman.
Yep, that’s what being an enemy nation means. If you have a peace treaty then, by definition, they’re not your enemy.
I take it that this denial means you are retracting your claim that Israel and Egypt are actually enemies?
So you’re not retracting your claim that Israel and Egypt are actual enemies and, thus, the peace treaty will soon be broken?
You’re welcome.
I figured that since you didn’t understand the difference that I could help clear up your ignorance on that point, as well as why the phrasing of survey questions effects the result that you get from any poll. I’m glad that I helped fight your ignorance.
Well, in order for me to explain it to you please let me know which bit you’re ignorant of:
-Are you ignorant of the fact that Saudi Arabia exports one of the most virulently anti-American doctrines on the planet?
-Are you ignorant of the fact that the Venezuelan government via Chavez is hostile to the United States?
-Are you ignorant of why, if you are really not retracting your claim that hostility = enemy nation status, that both Saudi Arabia and Venezuela are our enemies? And that, for instance, if Saudi Arabia is really our enemy than we ought to break our treaties and start opposing them?
Sorry, no. You were arguing against the position that “Israel isn’t the underlying cause of anti-American sentiment in the Middle East”. Thus, you were arguing for the position that “Israel is the underlying cause of anti-American sentiment in the Middle East.”
It’s kinda binary.
Let’s elaborate a bit more on this point, in case you’re still not grokking it.
For instance, year after year, the Iraqi people reported in polls that a significant majority of them viewed America as an occupying power and wanted us to leave, immediately. By any definition of the word, that is hostility.
Now, is it really your contention that the Iraqi people were actually our enemies? That, all along, when we were talking about our enemies in Iraq we were really talking about the people themselves?
With that out of the way, can you find the exact text of the survey questions for the poll you’ve quoted? Obviously it wasn’t conducted in English. Did the survey question translate to “hostile to”? "Unfriendly to ? How about “not friendly to”? Without knowing the actual question and seeing how it was translated, how do you even know what the survey really shows us? Or do you contend that the precise phrasing of survey questions does not tend to lead to wildly differing responses from informants?
I never claimed that Israel and Egypt are actually enemies. You are making shit up.
I never said or implied anything close to that. You are making shit up.
Argue with the dictionary:
I’m not ignorant of any of these issues. I am just failing to grasp the bizarre connection you are making.
Yes, Israel is the issue underlying our relationship with the ME. Note that I never said that it was the only issue or the cause of all our image problems in the ME.
I think you are playing a bizarre game with words that I don’t care to be a part of. If you come up with a poll saying that Iraqi’s think the U.S. is a hostile nation, then yes, I would say its fair to say that they consider us enemies.
I trust the BBC has accurately translated and vetted the poll that they reported. If you feel like dismissing it because it reports something that you don’t like then by all means do so.
Like the article said, the poll was taken right after the Mohammed cartoon controversy in Denmark and the war in Lebanon between Israel and Hezbollah, so the extent of the negative feelings against both Denmark and Israel was probably due in part to those events.
I previously agreed that Iraq has reached a level equal to that of Israel. You bring up another good issue in the attitude towards the ME. I found a good poll here (warning PDF) that covers the major ME countries. It basically breaks down that to 1/3 Iraq is most important, 1/3 attitude is most imporant, and the last third thinks Israel is the most important issue.
Obviously Iraq is a post 2003 issue, so there is no telling where that third was before then. But I am willing to change my position from Israel being the most important issue to one of the most important issues.
Yep. I pointed out that bit about the war against Hezbollah as well, and my point was more that the word “enemy” was being misused as the Egyptians were viewing Denmark as an antagonistic/offensive nation but not, in fact, as an enemy.
Nope, sorry. And honestly, wtf is it with folks making shit up in order to, counter-fact8ually, claim that others are? Can we please get beyond this “I know you are but what am I” bullshit?
Anyways, as your text clearly shows, yah, you did indeed say exactly, clearly, and explicitly that Israel and Egypt are enemies.
Note, actually enemies. Not “someone’s perceived enemy” let alone “someone’s erroneously perceived enemy” but “someone’s enemy”. It’s kinda silly to claim that you didn’t say that supporting Israel was supporting “someone [who is] Egypt’s enemy.”
Instead of pretending that I’m making up your quote, would you prefer to acknowledge that you really did say it, and retract it as inaccurate instead since you seem to no longer want to defend it?
Already covered above, and I’d reiterate my request that you not fabricate claims of me “making shit up”.
Along the same lines, would you like to acknowledge and retract your own words, or support them? You’ve got pretty much those two choices, and I’d rather you at least admit what you said and that it was wrong rather than have you pretend at each point when I respond to what you said that I’m “making up” your own quotes. It’s kinda silly.
Just like a theory is any guess you come up with, right? Right?
Again, are you retracting your claim that Israel and Egypt are enemies, and thus, not at peace and thus, the peace treaty will be overturned? Or are you retracting it? Or will you continue to support it while denying it and alleging that your own words are somehow “made up” by me?
You’re honestly confused as to why I’m asking you to say whether or not nations that are hostile to America, like Saudi Arabia, are our enemies? You don’t understand that?
Perhaps you’re lacking comprehension because on one hand you’d like to claim that hostility makes a nation our enemy, but you’d also like to claim that “Saudi Arabia, is our closest ally in the region”. So evidently you’d also like to claim that hostility can be totally ignored and a nation can still be not only an ally, but a close ally.
Would you care to acknowledge and retract any of your contradictory claims?
As is rather obvious, your original contention was in fact that “Israel is the underlying cause of anti-American sentiment in the Middle East.”
I’m not surprised you’d rather backtrack and claim that it’s really "the underlying issue’ which I’m sure will later be changed to “an underlying issue” .
Would you care to acknowledge and retract that, too?
Are you honestly now contending that saying a nation is an occupying force that should leave immediately does not indicate hostility? That’s, what, a friendly sentiment? Should I just tell you to “argue with the dictionary” and ask you to justify your bizarre view that saying Americans are an occupying force who should leave immediately evinces that they view us as “having an intimidating, antagonistic, or offensive nature”?
All of a sudden do you no longer believe that simple dictionary denotations will suffice? Would you like to retract that claim, too?
So, no cite of the actual poll, no analysis of the poll’s methodology, survey questions, data collection, etc…
But we do get an Appeal to Authority.
Check.
Why, as I’ve gone on about how there’s no link to the poll, no ability to analyze its methodology, questions, data collection, survey questions, you instead are really thinking that I said we shouldn’t take it as gospel since “I don’t like it”.
I could see how that’d be really confusing.
“We need to see the poll so we can analyze it” sounds just like “I won’t believe it because I don’t like it”. Normal people make those sorts of mistakes all the time.
Would you like to retract that, too?
Since you kids refuse to play nice and the OP has long since been abandoned, this thread is closed.