Did people think differently in the past?

Over in Café Society, RealityChuck said this, regarding whether or not people would think that a person rooting through someone else’s drawers might mean they were a lesbian:

Of course we have some way of knowing what people in the past thought – through documents and so on - but our interpretations can differ, so I thought this might be an interesting starting point for a debate.

Personally I think it all depends on intellect – stupid people have always been stupid the same way, whereas enlightened types may vary. Are we more enlightened now? Or just more used to things which may have shocked even your Rabelais or Montaigne?

I’m quite often surprised by the opposite; that people in the past actually thought quite a lot like we do, they just didn’t have the same cultural and technological context that we have.

That isn’t to say that people of all cultures think alike - they don’t - regardless of whether those cultures are separated by geography or time, but people are basically people - they tend to form relationships and families, they tend to need food, clothing and shelter, they tend to get bored staring at blank walls or listening to silence and they tend to have to manage their personal affairs in some way or other - this leads to a number of potential similarities in problem-solving methodology (which is pretty much what ‘thinking’ is about).

One of the key things that really drove this idea home for me was coming across a cuneiform tablet for sale on eBay (apparently completely legally) - it was marked with a grid of closely-spaced horizontal lines, broken up by broadly-spaced vertical ones; in one column was a list of names, at the head of some other columns were the words for things like ‘bread’, ‘beer’, ‘oil’, etc. inside the grid were numeric values representing the amount of each commodity that had been given to (or bought from, I can’t remember) each of the named individuals. At the foot of the columns, below the rows with names, there was a block of totals.
It was a spreadsheet - just like Excel - only done in cuneiform on a piece of clay, thousands of years ago - instead of being done on a computer last week.

I think(!) it depends what you mean by “think”. If you mean the straightforward workings of the intellect and firings of neurons then - assuming a healthy, sane human being - then there would be very little different.

Certain forms of intellectual reasoning influenced by education would vary just as they vary now.

In terms of how people thought and judged because of prevailing social mores and opinion, then this would have been very different. You should be able to detect this even by looking at your parents’ generation. While there are enlightened people in every era, social “norms” vary greatly.

People would have thought certain things were abhorrent that today we find acceptable, and vice versa. Slavery and homosexuality being two examples.

[QUOTE=Fortean]
Over in Café Society, RealityChuck said this, regarding whether or not people would think that a person rooting through someone else’s drawers might mean they were a lesbian:

Yer darn tootin’. Why, back in my day, if you rooted through other people’s drawers, it meant you were a snoop.

Well, coming over from the thread of origin, I think the OP’s vision of “thing differently” wasn’t so much a matter of “have a different process” but "culture so different that it could change the way they perceive one another.

If that sounds confusing, it’s because I’m confused. It seems very obvious to me that over time culture has wrought HUGE changes in the way people perceive things.

For example, vibrators began their illustrious career as devices used by doctors to bring female patients suffering from what was then diagnosed as “hysteria” to orgasm quickly and easily, rather than having to do it tediously by hand.

If Americans could be so fucking ignorant that women did not know how to give themselves orgasms, it seems very likely that they could be ignorant about homosexuality. Obviously, the ignorance wasn’t total – in 1933, there was a furor over some lesbian smooging done on an innocent Christian gal by a degenerate Roman lady in the movie “Sign of the Cross.”

At the same time, back in the 1800 and on into the early 1900s, just about every town of any size in America had a bordello. Almost every last one. Out West they tended to be associated with saloons (remember Miss Kitty from Gunsmoke – a cleaned-up bordello madam). This widespread institution wasn’t on par with the town hall, but every guy in town knew what it was and where it was. It wasn’t just for miners and cattle drovers.

The Discovery Channel did an excellent series on the history of sex that had a lot of eye-opening info along these lines. Frex, didja know that the romans kept a huge phallus on their doors for visitors to touch for good luck? And that most of the roman busts you see of male Romans also had a big cock inscribed on them, too? Or that the Egyptians were fond of making water and wine pots with very labial spouts? You don’t because the Victorian scientists who discovered them repressed all that information.

Things really were different in the old days. Can you imagine growing up and having no opportunity at all to learn what a member of the opposite sex’s genitals looked like, until you had that initial Close Personal Encounter? A lot of people had that experience in the old days.

This is also apparent across contemporary cultures, not just those in the past. Perceptions are dramatically different.

One significant instance where the past is a very foreign country is IMO the attitude to justice, retribution and responsibility on the family vs. individual level. For example, in Job 1, 14-19, Job’s servants, sons and daughters are killed by various agencies. We modern readers will probably thing, “Yes, that’s hard on Job (by way of being a test). But isn’t it a bit hard on the servants, sons and daughters too? It’s nothing to do with them after all”. Contemporary readers probably found nothing wrong with that - also with the other instances in the OT of retribution being visited on a malefactors’s family.

I agree with istara, expecially on intellectual reasoning. An example I find particularly striking is the experimental method. Propose a hypothesis: changing X will affect the result, Y, in a certain way. Test it by designing an experiment where everything stays the same, except for X, which you vary in a controlled way, measuring the effect on Y. If your hypothesis seems correct, congratulations! If not, modify the hypothesis based on your results, and try again.

It seems like a pretty obvious idea: if you want to know what X does, then try the process several times, changing only X—but when you think about it, it’s very sophisticated, much more so than basic trial and error.

Before the Renaissance, the way people figured things out, from the Ancient Greeks on, was to use logic and reason. You take the self-apparent, obvious properties of X, and what you know about the process, and you reason out what should be the result. Of course, sometimes they could demonstrate that X wasn’t causing the same result that the philosophers reasoned it must—and that meant that their assumptions were flawed, or that their logic must have a flaw in it, and more thinking must be done to solve the problem.

However, without the tool of the experimental method, it was much, much harder to notice that there was a problem with someone’s conclusions. If you don’t isolate X and vary it systematically, which can be damn difficult to accomplish, it’s very hard to put your finger exactly on whether X is having the effect attributed to it (especially without the scientific method’s emphasis on quantiative measurements and independently reprodicing the results of other people’s experiments.)

One of the things I think about when I’m lying awake at night is whether the scientific method, which is pretty keen, is really the best way to figure stuff out. Four hundred years from now (or two hundred . . . or next week) will someone come up with a new way of thinking about problems that is as strange to us as the scientific method would have been to Aristotle? Aristotle was surely smart enough to have grasped the experimental method. If someone took a time machine back to Ancient Greece and explained it to him, would he have thought that devising tests to show whether one’s reasoning was correct was a great idea? Or would he have rejected it?

And then there are general ideas of worldview. In the Middle Ages, for instance, they thought of the world as basically static and unchanging (at best.) Basically, folks were just marking time until Judgement Day, stumbling from one war to another, one outbreak of the Plague to the next. There wasn’t any concept of progress, of people’s lives getting better as we learned new things. Quite the contrary: humanity was through to be getting worse and wickeder as time went on as part of a general downhill slide since the Garden of Eden. Paintings of historical events showed people in contemprary fashions, wielding contemporary technology. There doesn’t seem to be much of a grasp on the notion that things had changed since then. Most of the time people were very resistant to new ideas rather than embracing them eagerly as we do today.

The notion of linear progress is rather peculiar to modern society, but it’s so ingrained in our psyche that it’s hard for us to imagine a society where the future is not regarded as bright. It’s a great cliche in historical fiction to have some wizard or inventor discovering modern ideas—and the protagonist often triumphs by employing these innovations. (It’s almost as cliche as good guys in historical fiction being more enlightened and campaigning against conditions that passed completely without comment in the society of the period.) But for much of history, people were doing things the exact same way their grandparents and great-grandparents did, with only the most minor variations.

Just noticed this thread (I rarely visit Great Debates) and I thought I’d clarify what I meant.

I do not mean that people in the past or in different cultures are less (or more) intelligent than they are today. I’m assuming that you have the same rough percentage of smart and stupid people you always had (though, obviously, education is probably better nowadays).

What I do mean is that people have different perceptions in different times. For instance, no one in the 1960s thought there was anything wrong with referring to an adult woman as a “girl.” People in the 1950s would think nothing of having a couple of drinks before driving, and chain smoking cigarettes. You were expected when writing a business letter to a woman without knowing if she was married, to address her as “Miss,” because that was more flattering than “Mrs.”

There’s an example I love in the movie Mr. Deeds Goes to Town. Gary Cooper is in his house wearing a dress shirt and pants. Guests arrive. His butler says, “You can’t meet them looking like that,” and insists he put on a dressing gown and ascot.

There was also an Ellery Queen mystery where the murderer went to great lengths to hide the fact that the victim was not wearing a tie – which would have immediately given the killer away. Nowadays a man without a tie wouldn’t have attracted the slightest notice.

It goes further back, of course. Most people imagine how back in Shakespeare’s time, the people spent their evenings in the tavern and then they walked home. But back then, there were few streetlights, and there was a profession of “linkmen” whose job would be to grab a torch and light the way. Note that “Shakespeare in Love” shows no linkmen.

But it’s more than just the obvious examples. Most people nowadays assume that when Shakespeare went home at night, he’d spend the evening watching TV before going to bed. Now, no one is going to admit to that when confronted, but the assumption is that Shakespeare would spend his evening the same way we do until you point out the issues. (Most likely, once he got home, he’d go to bed as soon as it was dark – candles were expensive and didn’t give much light).

The examples are endless. They cut across cultures as well as time, but people are more aware of the differences with a different culture, and not with their own. And what happens is that the assumptions of our day are used to try to interpret actions of another.

This is especially true of things pertaining to sex. People have claimed Lincoln was gay because he shared a bed with another man. But in the 19th century, two men sharing a bed was not an automatic indication of anything sexual going on. Lincoln would never have understood the “that’s not a pillow” joke in Planes, Trains, and Automobiles for instance, since homosexuality was not something people were conscious of (My father, for instance, didn’t know until that Benjamin Britten had fallen deeply in love with him until over 40 years later, despite the fact Britten gave him signs that would have been unmistakable today) .

But the issue is pervasive. Changes in society cause changes in how people think. Everything we see is influenced by our social background, and that background has changed over time. So when we try to interpret what is going on in the past, we have to always be aware of the context and the way the people of the time would look at things, and not come to conclusions because we look at them in a particular way.

People thought differently in the past, and we still do.

No, I’m not sure about the thrust of this question, but there are seemingly very different ways of thinking just across the world, never mind across history. Heck, there are some pretty different ways of thinking just from one side of the economic class divide to the other.

The Japanese think of pizza toppings that Americans would never imagine. American ideas of proper behavior are quite puzzling to the rest of the world. Some of this is simply called “culture.”

Some think that “Reality TV” is entertaining. Some think that math is cool, and others think that it’s impossible nonsense.

As far as history is concerned: read up on Abraham Lincoln’s opinions on equality between the races, and decide for yourself whether people thought differently back then (and he was one of the moderately enlightened ones).

I’ve read books written 300, 600, 2000 years ago where I couldn’t tell when it was written based on the content and the writer’s thinking. These are often philosophy books… or pornography :eek: … so the subject matter is ancient but still useful today.

I’m also a big fan of the history of common folk like myself, and real accounts of how average people live in days gone by seem little different from today. The funny fallacies they believed about superstitions, race, science, etc. have been replaced with modern ones about crystal healing, interest-only home loans, socialism, etc. :wink: I wouldn’t be too proud about being an “elightened modern thinker”, it never bears out to be true when people say that.

-d

It’s interesting that some of you are pointing out ways of thinking – reasoning, doing maths, etc – because as a non-scientist I would always assume that any change, or lack of change, would be social or cultural terms. These are the most obvious to everyone, but it may well be that the greatest revolutions take place in the background.

It took a while from Mangetout’s spreadsheet to Turing, though, didn’t it.

This is what I find so baffling about the past. You read someone writing in say 1780, say Laurence Sterne, and what they write is so humane and thoughtful, it is hard to imagine that somewhere else, someone is treating black slaves as animals.

Why should this be so? Was everyone too used to violence and death, or was their mistreatment based on (for want of a better term) lack of experience – being scared of black Africans as strangers and beings potentially more powerful than they (the slaveowners) where?

Sexuality in general is another thing that baffles me. On the one hand, men were denying that women orgasmed; on the other, whores were taught how to moan and groan when with a client.

Are there examples of the same kind of hypocrisy today?

try this experiment: ask someone in your family over age 70 a very impolite question: how did he personally treat Negroes?.

yep, people sure did think differently in the past—and I’m not talking about centuries. The most basic part of our psychological makeup --i.e. respect for other human beings–has changed—and not in “the past”, but within our own lifetimes

I don’t doubt that people thought very differently. As others have mentioned, in the past ownership of slaves, execution of homosexuals, taking children along to cheer at someone having their head chopped off and so forth were all considered perfectly normal. Those things would horrify the vast majority of the population of the western world in 2005. Interestingly all those things are still being being practised today somewhere in the world. And you only have to read the Old Testament to see the authors boasting about how they slaughtered civilians and raped girls to know that those things were not just tolerable but things to be sought with great relish. The way people think is a product of their culture. Our culture tells us those things are wrong, other cultures now or then told peoplethat they were right.

Where I disagree with some of the earlier posters is the implication that our society is somehow better or lacks contradictions. It’s always hard to evaluate our own society because we’re too bound up in it. I’m sure people of the past saw no real contradiction between slave ownersgip and cvil liberties or between having two distinct types of women, one of whom was a passionate and wanton and one of whom was chaste and virtuous. Those are just examples of different ways of thinking then and now.
I’m absolutely certain that people 100 years form now will look at today and see the same apparent contradictions, yet they are rarely questioned by society today because the way our culture has taught us to think makes it difficult to see them. For example (and I don’t want a side debate on thei issues) there is no reason why a man in 2105 won’t look at the US today crying for racial and sexual equality while at the same time endorsing affirmative action and proscribing female front-line conscription as being every bit as bizarre as any previous era’s apparent contradictions. The same could easily be true of the push for ecological causes by the western nations who are simultaneously the world’s worst polluters and resource exploiters.

The fact is that the world is full of what could be readily described as gross contradictions, situations where one stated standard seems to require the rejection of another just as much as the foundingt fathers endorsing freedom while owning slaves. However these things aren’t necessarily apparent to the people living in a society and they certainly require a knowledge of the self-interest and morality of thepeope of the time to understand.
All of which proves that people in different cultures do indeed think very differently.

Well I’ve read tha posts and think I’m ready to add my own, although I rarely venture into GDs so forgive me if I seem a bit off target.

I don’t think we necessarily ‘think’ differently but I do believe we justify differently than people in other times and in other places.

Let me try to explain, back at Uni. I did a dissertation on the - wait for it - “The 'Role of the Love Potion in the Legend of Tristan and Iseult”. (One of those eternal love versus loyalty leading to betrayal and death type myths.) Basically in the earliest written versions of the legend the lovers have to see each other every day or they will die - it is a physical necessity, later the idea of ‘courtly love’ appears and the potion binds them in a more dutiful way, for the Romantic poets the potion seemed to represent fate and by the 20th century authors were doing away with the potion altogether, there was no need for a symbol at all the lovers acted the way they did because they were in love, period.

Can you see how different justifications were given in different ages to explain the actions of the protagonists ?

Just remembered that David Gelernter’s book 1939, which is basically about New York at the time of the first World’s Fair, includes an excellent exegesis on the morés and mindset of the day.

(For example, in 1939 just about every male not involved in the heaviest of manual labor wore a tie. Not just to work, but around home as well. Even soldiers’ field uniforms included a tie.)

I am not at all willing to give people in past days a blanket pass on morality, not am I willing to say our present culture is no better and no worse than theirs. Our present culture, stinky as it is, is a HUGE improvement morally over past cultures, by a standard set down over 2000 years ago.

That standard, my friend, is the Golden Rule, and the fact that someone was able to think about it and expostulate it 2000 years ago tells me that it was possible to understand the moral flaws in a culture even back in the old days when slavery was the basic mechanism for generating excess production in a society.

Frankly, I think objective thinking about morality and fairness long predates The Golden Rule. “Why does Ogg get all the antelope leftovers while we must chew on the skin and hooves?” was undoubtedly a question asked around a lot of campfires in prehistoric days, and the answer of course was that Ogg would brain you with a rock if you asked him any such question, so … it’s tradition!

The double standard for women and slaves strikes me as more Ogg think, with a slightly more cagey Ogg using the law, tradition, and willingness to brain you with a rock to defend his prerogatives.

Our current society is not perfect, far from it – I predict that our descendants will think us insanely stupid for locking up low-level drug abusers instead of treating them. But we’re WAAAAAY better than a lot of societies in the past, and a lot of current societies, too, because we’re fairer, more in line iwth the Golden Rule.

Don’t like it? Deal.
I’m absolutely certain that people 100 years form now will look at today and see the same apparent contradictions, yet they are rarely questioned by society today because the way our culture has taught us to think makes it difficult to see them. For example (and I don’t want a side debate on thei issues) there is no reason why a man in 2105 won’t look at the US today crying for racial and sexual equality while at the same time endorsing affirmative action and proscribing female front-line conscription as being every bit as bizarre as any previous era’s apparent contradictions. The same could easily be true of the push for ecological causes by the western nations who are simultaneously the world’s worst polluters and resource exploiters.

The fact is that the world is full of what could be readily described as gross contradictions, situations where one stated standard seems to require the rejection of another just as much as the foundingt fathers endorsing freedom while owning slaves. However these things aren’t necessarily apparent to the people living in a society and they certainly require a knowledge of the self-interest and morality of thepeope of the time to understand.
All of which proves that people in different cultures do indeed think very differently.
[/QUOTE]

How about the movies? In the old days the macho hero hero would grab the reluctant girl and by sheer force with his overwhelming strength embrace her in a hug and face plant that would do a python proud. Inevitably all her resistance would melt away as if her life was squeezed out of her and upon release, she revives but under a spell whereby she re-engages embrace.

The cool hero today is such a chick magnet that by the sheer force of his gaze he without effort slowly pulls in the powerless female until their lips make contact. Only then will he initiate lip lock and perform with masculine gusto.

Today a woman’s no means no.

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]

And that my friend is a perfect example of people thinking very differently today than in the past. It is also a perfect example of people being so permeated by their own culture that they are unable to even see that they are.

Thank you for providing such a perfect example for us all to illustrate the point. Even though I know you didn’t mean to.
This is exactly the type of thing the Op was asking for. The reason Evil Captor believes that the Golden Rule is the ultimate standard for judging behaviour is of course because he has been indoctrinated by a society that uses such a standard. Of course he believes any society that moves closer to that standard is better.

Now consider how other societies such as the Spartans might have viewed such changes. A society that believed that the only ultimate ‘rights’ were handed down arbitrarily by the gods and maintained by force of arms. These societies would have seen “Do unto others” as disgraceful and cowardly in the extreme. One does not do unto others, one should do as one can. Indeed one has a duty to subjugate others.

Evil Captor has illustrated my point perfectly. He clearly thinks very differently to the warrior cultures to whom the golden rule was an abomination. And he is so indoctrinated by his own exposure to the Golden Rule that he can’t even see that this is the case.

The Golden Rule isn’t some sort of objective moral guideline. It is merely the one that our society has chosen to adopt by and large. Our society isn’t better for having adopted it, it’s merely different. We can say that our society is better than others of the past based on objective measures like SOL but that is quite unrelated to any wishy washy subjective moral basis.