Did the Constitution make civil war inevitable?

Well, since I’m not getting any response to my futurology thread, let’s try this. I say bloody, sectional conflict was the natural result of structural compromises embedded in the Constitution. To wit:

[ul][li]The entrenchment of slavery as a Southern institution was aided by the three-fifths compromise, which guaranteed to slave owners the exercise of a voice disproportionate to their numbers. As a result, slave states received twenty-five additional seats in the House of Representatives, an institutionalization of slave-holding interests.[/li]
[li]Each state was given the right to choose “times, places, and manner” of elections (Article I, Sec. 4), as well as the right to decide who could and could not vote (Article I, Sec. 2), which secured political power for the slave-holding status quo within the Southern states.[/li]
[li]Equal state representation in the Senate provided slave states with a near veto over legislation and an absolute veto over constitutional amendments, so long as the number of states allowing slaves roughly equalled the number prohibiting them. This set the stage for enduring, open conflict between North and South, as each new state which gained admittance to the union found itself the subject of a high-stakes tug-of-war for political influence.[/ul][/li]
Southerners were fearful of Northern encroachment into their sovereign domain from the outset of the union. Attempts at nationalism–such as Henry Clay’s “American System”–were seen by Southern leaders as attacks upon their cultural autonomy. And Southern threats of secession became common reactions to any sectional conflict–be it economic (the Tariff of Abomination in 1828), racial (possible diplomatic recognition of Haiti in 1826), or political (the admission of California, leading to the Compromise of 1850). Lincoln’s election may have fueled other states to join in South Carolina’s zealotry for secession, but if it hadn’t been him it would have been someone else–there had been similar rumblings about the candidacy of John Fremont four years earlier.

Basically, I’m saying that the Framers were unwilling to deal substantively with the issue of slavery, and simply allowed for the question to be deferred (and its presence embodied within the Constitution) until it could no longer be ignored. Now, maybe they could have preempted future conflict by more firmly addressing the contradiction between the independence America had fought to gain and the continued existence of slavery within its borders. Had they done this, though, it’s likely that the Southern states would have refused to ratify the Constitution–and the U.S. might have begun its life not as one nation but two.

Instead, in the spirit of compromise which pervaded the Framing, the Constitution clearly allowed for the accommodation of Southern society–and in doing so, legitimized two versions of America would would necessarily prove bloodily incompatible eventually.

(It’s important to realize that the Southern leaders didn’t view their cause as revolutionary, but as a struggle to retain a way of life institutionalized in this country since its beginning. Jefferson Davis said, “We are resisting revolution. …We are not engaged in a Quixotic fight for the rights of man; our struggle is for inherited rights… We are upholding the doctrines of the Federal Constitution. We are conservative.”)

Thoughts?

I don’t know … I’m not American, don’t know too much about the constitution. Though I do remember a passage about it being the responsibility of the people to change the government when the government isn’t working. I don’t know the exact wording here, maybe someone can clarify.

But based on that - isn’t that an open invitation for riot, revolution and civil war alone?

Absolutely. Had the regional compromises not been included in the Constitution, it could not have been adopted, and the United States (under the Articles of Confederation; mustn’t forget here that there was a constitution before the Constitution) would have had only a nominal existence, at best, for another few decades. In the place of the United States would have arisen at least three confederacies: a New England confederacy restive under the domination of Massachusetts, and with Vermont providing a ready-made casus belli with New York; an Atlantic confederacy with New Tork and Pennsylvania constantly vying for power; and a Southern confederacy dominated by Virginia, and probably launching impreialistic ventures at the behest of the plantation aristocracy into the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys and the Carribean. If we assume that abolition developed as it did, the Civil War wouldn’t have been the War Between the States, but the War Betweens the American Nations.


“I don’t just want you to feel envy. I want you to suffer, I want you to bleed, I want you to die a little bit each day. And I want you to thank me for it.” – What “Let’s just be friends” really means

I agree with Akatsukami. The eventual conflict between the slave-based economy of the South and the non-slave economy of the North was enshrined long before even the Articles of Confederation were ratified.

The absolute differences in the economy styles- agricultural vs. manufacturing- and in morality- slavery vs. abolitionism- laid the seeds for conflict, and that conflict would have happened no matter what. Had the Constitution been strictly anti-slavery, the South never would have joined, and likely there would have been an eventual war between the North and the South as seperate countries fighting for dominance over North America. Or possibly England would have taken control of the divided countries following the War of 1812, and England’s eventual attempts to abolish slavery would have resulted in a Second American Revolution.

Either way, the existence of slavery as an institution in the South demanded an eventual war to remove it. No other plan of action was feasible (paying slave-owners to free their slaves would have been to expensive for a young, relatively tax-free country; moral pressure was tried but didn’t work; outlawing slavery and forcing the situation on the slave-owners by arms was the only way to guarantee compliance, if not acceptance).

You can certainly blame the Constitution for delaying the eventual fight; but I think the moral weight of establishing one of the first real democracies as a stable country outweighed the moral demand to remove slavery.


JMCJ

“Y’know, I would invite y’all to go feltch a dead goat, but that would be abuse of a perfectly good dead goat and an insult to all those who engage in that practice for fun.” -weirddave, set to maximum flame

I think you’re thinking of the Declaration of Independence, which reads in part “…whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive to those ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government…”

You say this like it’s a bad thing. People do this all the time. “I’m not at present able to deal substantively with the issue of my house needing a new roof, so I allow the question to be deferred until it can no longer be ignored.”

Governments are made up of people. Governments do this all the time. “We the people are not at present able to deal substantively with the issue of national health care, so we allow the question to be deferred until it can no longer be ignored.”

I think those old boys were a lot better at the art of politics than we give them credit for. Just because someone’s wearing tights, a fancy shirt with lace on it, and a powdered wig doesn’t mean he has no talent for making the kinds of deals that actually get things done. We post-Industrial Revolution folks like to think that we invented the “smoke-filled room”, but in fact it’s been around as long as people needed to make compromises in order for the world to advance.


“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen

[hijack]
P.S. Gadarene, it’s important to bear in mind that when nobody posts to your thread, they’re not rejecting you personally–they just don’t happen to be in the mood to talk about whatever.

They’re not saying “no” to you, just “no” to your topic. 'Kay? :wink:

And it’s entirely possible that you might try the same topic in a week or two and be up to two pages before you can say, “Cecil, sell Susie’s seashells soonest.”

:slight_smile:

[/hijack]


“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen

Aw, no, never took it personally. Just thought it was a topic with a lot of potential. :smiley: And I was in a deliberative mood last night, so I started another thread, one with a more direct question. Thanks for the heads-up, though. It’s kinda weird, 'cause I actually was planning on saying “Cecil, sell Susie’s seashells soonest” later this afternoon. Now I might just hold off till next week. :slight_smile:

Now lemme respond to your other post…

What if the United States had not expanded westward? The balance of power between slave and non-slave states would have been more or less maintained and the Union would most likely have persevered. (Of course, beng in Missouri, I’d be speaking French, but that’s another issue.)

I can’t blame the Civil War on the framers of the Consitution anymore than I can blame flesh-eating bacteria on Alexander Fleming (the discoverer of penicillin). Failure to anticipate every possibility does not translate into blame.


I understand all the words, they just don’t make sense together like that.

Okay, yeah, but how about, “I see my roof is going to cave in within the next thirty years. 'Course, I’ll have moved by then, so I’ll let future residents deal with it.” Not to mention that this analogy would be more appropriate had I built the house with a makeshift roof, 'cause I didn’t have better materials at hand and I needed somewhere to stay, and then decide not to worry about the roof as long as the rest of the house was still standing. Okay, I’m probably stretching the hypothetical a bit too far, but you see my point: the Framers deferred the slavery question in order to form a union, knowing that the conflict between slave states and free states wouldn’t have to be reconciled until sometime further down the line, by someone else. But that it would have to be reconciled eventually.

Good point, and more relevant than house-building. :wink: There’s still a difference, though, between deciding not to address existing conditions due to political considerations (or because you feel that nothing needs to be done), as in national health care, and providing for the legitimization of two completely incompatible ways of life within the document which sets out the very structure of government.

And I completely agree with you. Too many people believe today that that Framers were somehow all of one mind, when they were a diverse collection of regional and economic interests with radically different ideas about how a country should be governed. read The Anti-Federalist Papers sometime. My point is just that eventual civil war was a reasonably foreseeable consequence of the constitutional structure, especially by men as smart as the Framers. Maybe they were hoping that the South would mellow out about the whole thing eventually, or that the two regions could learn to live in harmony, but by vesting the Southern states with enough initial political power to preserve their interests for the longer term, the various compromises set the stage for enduring conflict every time the United States took a step forward as a unified nation.

There’s a strong argument that westward expansion was inevitable, given the natural tendencies of any country, and especially the particular cultural predispositions of the United States. The concept of Manifest Destiny, after all, is firmly rooted in Calvinist thought and can be traced back to the Puritans. (I’m completely blanking on the name of the guy who delivered the “shining city on a hill” speech–no, not Ronald Reagan. Someone help me out?) Besides which, to the extent that some expansion was inevitable (given that the United States owned territory which had not yet been incorporated into statehood), the political question of slavery was present from the outset in that expansion. The Ordinance of 1787 excluded slavery from territory northwest of the Ohio River, a move viewed by slave states as an almost immediate threat to the rights they felt had been guaranteed by the Constitution.

Jonathin Edwards, IIRC.
And even stopping westward expansion wouldn’t have stopped friction between the slave/free states- the slave states felt threatened by the abolitionist movement in the North even as they maintained a balance of power in Congress. What set off the Civil War was less the fight over how to divide the new territories than the threat of electing a President who would be willing to ban slavery (not Lincoln, per se, but Lincoln’s election made the South realize that that day would be coming real soon now).


JMCJ

“Y’know, I would invite y’all to go feltch a dead goat, but that would be abuse of a perfectly good dead goat and an insult to all those who engage in that practice for fun.” -weirddave, set to maximum flame

Yes, the Constitution made the Civil War inevitable. But not for any of the reasons listed in the OP. A bloody civil war over the secession of the Southern states was inevitable for one simple reason:

Nowhere did the Constitution mention whether States had a right to secede from the Union or not!

If States had been given the explicit right to secede, according to some procedure they had to follow, the South would have bloodlessly pulled away and the Confederate States of America might even still exist today. If States had been expressly prohibited from seceding, the Southern States might never have joined in the first place – although they might have been willing to remain allied with the new Constitutional United States under the old Articles of Confederation.

I said, “I’m completely blanking on the name of the guy who delivered the “shining city on a hill” speech.”

John Winthrop, actually. I remembered five minutes after I left for lunch. Good points about the threat Lincoln potentially posed, by the way. It’s also interesting to note that the South was willing to secede over Lincoln’s election despite Honest Abe’s attempts at pacification–the Crittenden Compromise, for one, which promised to open future southern territories up to slavery. Lincoln, of course, also beseeched abolitionist leaders to consider the relocation of the black people to Haiti or the Dominican Republic, in an effort to achieve lasting peace. Conflicted guy.

Well, as Lincoln told Greeley, he’d do whatever it takes to preserve the Union.

And as far as Lincoln’s position on slavery, he had made it pretty clear in the Lincoln-Douglas debates that he wasn’t an abolitionist who wanted to immediately remove slavery from the South; he just felt that a further extension of slavery into the new territories was wrong. And while he felt that eventually slavery would wither upon the vine, he was willing to sit back and wait for that rather than jumping in and forcing the situation.


JMCJ

“Y’know, I would invite y’all to go feltch a dead goat, but that would be abuse of a perfectly good dead goat and an insult to all those who engage in that practice for fun.” -weirddave, set to maximum flame

We’re coming at the same argument from different sides, I think, tracer. The Constitution was certainly seen as a voluntary contract by some, not least because it never explicitly delineates the conditions for withdrawal from the union. The fact remains, though, that the structural underpinnings which were explicit in the Constitution made accommodation for the slave society of the South, and legitimized slavery as a political and economic interest. This set up a predictable conflict between the unifying nationalism necessarily undertaken by any nascent country, and the particularized regional concerns of Southern slave-holders with policy-shaping power.

Interesting that you use that phrase, and apropos to the discussion of nationalism. It wasn’t until relatively late in the life of the United States (around the time of Clay’s “American System,” I think, in the 1830s) that “Union” became a proper noun. Initially, it was uncapitalized, signifying as it did a union between relatively autonomous states. Clay’s aim was to knit the country together by virtue of interdependent economic relationships (high import duties, internal improvements, a central national bank), superseding sectional differences to create a more unitary republic. And “Union” supplanted “union,” both symbolically and orthographically, as the name of the collection of states.

The framers absolutely knew the issue would have to be addressed at sometime in the future. Thomas Jefferson’s initial draft of the Declaration of Independence which precedes The Constitution by 13 years had specific anti-slavery language in it. However John Dickinson of Pennsylvania (a northern state) headed a group of mostly southern representatives who vowed not to sign the declaration if it contained anti-slavery verbage.

Jefferson argued that if slavery wasn’t dealt with then it surely would have to be dealt with in the future, but the pro-slavery coalition was too strong and the anti-slavery section was removed.

The Constitution, like the Declaration of Independence, was a necessary compromise of the times, and even if it was clear that slavery would someday become an issue of national divisiveness, it was a matter of fighting the battles you can win, when you can win them. Even with the anti-slavery passage removed from the Declaration of Independence it barely got the necessary votes to be adopted. There were enough concerns with being tried for treason against England that other issues just had to be subjegated to another time.

I wrote:

Then Gadarene replied:

I don’t really think so. The main argument here seems to be centered around whether the South would have eventually seceded no matter how the Constitution was written. But the OP was asking not whether secession was inevitable, but whether the Civil War was inevitable.

I am contending that, had secession been specifically addressed in the Constitution, there would have been no Civil War – even if the South eventually seceded.

So the failure of the Constitution to explicitly address secession rendered civil war inevitable. Glad to see we agree. :smiley: