Here in Metro Detroit(home of the largest arab population outside the middle east) Iraqi’s have indeed been returning to their homeland. They haven’t been going back to help Saddam though.
:sigh:
Randy, it is not a “strawman,” and I “clearly see” that OliverH’s actual claim is that Iraqi expats are to a substantial part against the war.
What I am doing is called “attacking his evidence.” It’s at the heart of a debate. OliverH has presented two bits of evidence to support his contention. The first is that expats are flocking back to Iraq to fight. The second is the assertion that under most every “no to Saddam, no to war” poster is an Iraqi expat.
My statement was an attack intended to demonstrate that the second bit of evidence was a demographic impossibility, and therefore does not support Oliver’s position.
If attacking the evidence presented in support of a position is considered attacking a strawman, we should change the name of this forum from “Great Debates” to “Great Opinions.”
Rather than incorrectly accusing me of attacking strawmen, how about you and Oliver simply coming up with better evidence to support your contentions? An opinion poll of Iraqi expats in Europe would do the trick. You can find them using Google.
Unless, of course, such evidence would undermine your position.
Sua
This was your original strawman:
Only retracted after proven false.
Now, I must have missed your cite to why you believe there are not many Iraqis in europe! Have I?
What we can see in this thread quite clearly is the problem with Europeans and the sweeping generalizations and general ignorance (if I may generalize myself in a sweeping fashion based on <b>OliverH</b>'s statements).
You ask anyone in Germany and they will quite clearly tell you that their level of information has not been tainted in any sort. That their opinion is based on fact and that they have the real background information vs. people outside of their sphere, particularly Americans.
What they fail to realize is that they are the victim of the same propaganda tools as Americans can be. Citing sources as German newspapers, Der Spiegel, etc. then claiming that they have no agenda and provide the needed clarity is naive at best. To claim that German papers have no issue opposing the current government is disingenious considering that, for example, an opposing politician had to go to an American newspaper to get her opinion published. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32835-2003Feb19.html
<b>OliverH</b> represents the unfortunate wave of European public that considers itself better informed, more knowleadgeable, and generally more intelligent than Americans. Unfortunately, much of this is based on the European version of news spin and spouting of actual European intellectuals that are turning out to be thoughtleaders of the masses which is claiming to have no thoughtleadership and have arrived at their opinions by themselves. Sad to watch in action.
You will not see any supporting cites from <b>OliverH</b> nor any argumentation in fact; still, or because of that, you will see an overwhelming feeling of righteousness.
This is not to say that news spin does not exist in the USA, quite the contrary. It does show though that it behooves Americans to learn from this lesson and not fall for spin and use critical thinking, whichever way the spinning is actually going.
What obfuscatory nonsense. You compare websites to your local paper? Don’t be daft. I’m an American male living in a small American town with a bullshit local paper. Know what I do?
I read CNN, MSNBC, BBC, worldnews.com, reuters, ananova, and the AP wire. Oh, and occasionally Jordan Times, the Guardian, the London Times, and others. I dare you to somehow say I’m not getting balanced viewpoints without making yourself look foolish.
By keeping them in the towns hidden amongst the buildings. OK they still would have been popped off, but much more slowly and with more “collateral damage” and propaganda.
No, I don’t. But if your thoroughness in reading my post is representative of your thoroughness in reading in general, you can get as many sources as you want and still not get a balanced viewpoint. I pointed at my using those websites because the local paper (and the small town I used to live in was called Dallas, TX) was crap in regards to international coverage. I mentioned that I read them because I HAD to read them in order to have an idea what’s going on in the world.
You need to use all of these to get a balanced viewpoint. Here, I get three local newspapers with overlapping area coverage, all of which have plenty of international news. On top, I get the two major national newspapers published in nearby Frankfurt, one with a more conservative, one with a more left-leaning outlook. And I don’t just get them at a handful of locations across town, but at practically EVERY newsstand and convenience store (plus numerous other national papers and several papers for the turkish immigrants and guest workers).
Try getting the NY Times or the WSJ in Dallas. Outside of the central business district, you need to know where to go, and you have to go quite far if you happen not to live next to one of the few international press retailers.
But please, tell me, how many cities with 300,000 inhabitants you know of that are covered by no less than three area papers?
Thanks for demonstrating so thoroughly that aside from ad hominem attacks that are founded in nothing but an exxagerated nationalistic drive of the worst kind, you have nothing to offer. Obviously, it cannot even be expect of you to actually read the posts you react to.
Otherwise you would have realised that I lived in the US until very recently.
ROTFL. You see, it would help if you actually had an idea who you are talking about, rather than just ranting and raving. The politician you refer to is the leader of the German opposition, and she is being quoted just about every single day in just about every single paper on the market. She’s on TV in almost every single newscast. It might be incomprehensible for you, but columns by politicians are highly unusual in Germany, because news outlets try to remain independent in their coverage and not be the mouthpiece of individual politicians or parties. But interviews are ubiquitous. Of course, your ignorance doesn’t prevent you from launching rabid accusations. Nowhere does she claim that she cannot get published in Germany, but if it helps stirring xenophobia, that does not impede you from launching propaganda attacks-
You demonstrate quite well that spin exists, because you have shown that spin is all you have to offer. Up to and including outright lies. I would suggest that you do a search on my username and actually read my posts before claiming I provide no supporting cites. But for now, we have to conclude that compared to you, the Iraqi Information Minister is an honest man.
Why does it matter how someone gets a balanced viewpoint? Three sources, eight sources … whatever. So what.
Totally irrelevant. If somone can and does avail themselves of multiple viewpoints, whether by Internet or by paper, that’s all that matters.
BTW, getting the NY Times or Wall Street Journal is a cinch anywhere I’ve ever lived. Several gas stations out here in podunk Misssissippi sell both. I’d imagine it’s a cinch in Dallas, too.
Sorry, but you will have a hard time showing where I raised such a claim. What I did is provide evidence falsifying a claim, namely that no one would fight the US without pressure by the regime.
What you are doing is trying to turn the balance of proof around. What you are doing is trying to substitute evidence with ad hominem attacks. The fact that expats are going back to Iraq has been shown on TV in numerous countries. it is totally irrelevant how many. A single one would be enough to refute the claim that without the pressure of the regime, no one fights the US.
The second claim is easily shown by the fact that not many posters mention Saddam. Those that do are usually by Iraqis, or people close to Iraqis.
Sorry, but it doesn’t work that way. We were not the ones raising bold claims. We merely refuted them.
Beat me to it. Heck, at school we get the Washington version of the NY Times (even though we’re in Pennsylvania) handed out for free and there’s always a copy of the WSJ in the library. When I get the NY Times back home in New Mexico, it’s the national version, but I rarely do that since I can read it just as easily online. I’m more likely to read the WSJ in the library since I’d have to pay for my own copy or web access.
Speaking of strategy – the point about N. Vietnam vs. Iraq is an interesting one, though not completely on point. The N. Vietnames inflicted a LOT of atrocities on rural S. Vietnamese people before they “came around” to Ho Chi Minh’s viewpoint. True, a lot of S. Vietnamese did side wholeheartedly with the N. Viets, but it may have been a matter of “choose your tormentor” more than simple patriotism.
Unfortunately for Saddam, he and his Ba’athists ruled Iraq haven’t exactly captured the hearts and minds of the people, and now it’s costing him.
The only real option the Iraqis had to oppose the Americans was probably a “seige of Stalingrad” kinda deal, and the Iraqis don’t love Saddam the way the Russians loved their motherland, and the Americans may be riding in tanks and APCs, but they’re not Nazis.
Because availability and ease of availability matters.
Nope. The ease of availability is very much an issue.
Well, have you been in Dallas? You see, some grocery retailers carry the Fort Worth Star Telegram, but in practically all locations, all you get is the Dallas Morning News. Period. Oh yeah, once in a while, the University Store had a NYT or a WSD. (‘A’ as in one or two physical papers) But a University Store is hardly an outlet John Doe shops at.
That is just the fog of war. It is often difficult to tell who has surrendered and who is still fighting. I think you will find it is the media who reported that, not the military.
By what measure is the US less popular than Saddam’s regime?
Oliver, it don’t get much easier than the Internet.
BTW, paper-and-ink newspapers do not trump the newspapers’ websites. Hypothetically, someone who lives alone on a South Pacific atoll may never set eyes on a newspaper – but they can get a balanced view of world events if they have satellite access to the Internet.
You’re not talking to John Doe here in Great Debates. You are talking to people who inform themselves as a matter of course, every day.
No, I have not been in Dallas. Yet I will not buy for a penny that a NYT or WSJ is at all difficult to obtain in Dallas for someone who wants one. If they sell those periodicals in our gas stations and groceries here in Mississippi, I can safely conclude that the same is done in the Dallas area … and all cities in the U.S.
I’m still sad that Oliver didn’t address my earlier post. Sigh …
I get 8 newspapers in from 6 countries on a daily basis, plus four more on Sunday, three weekly newmagazines, five monthlies, and four academic journals devoted exclusively to foreign affairs. Languages represented are English, French, Spanish, German, Japanese, Farsi and Navajo. I watch 23 all-news channels on my satellite dish, listen to 11 radio stations, plus stay in touch with the shortwave. Not to mention my own personal network of spies and informers.
Oh, and I have a huge dick, too.
OliverH
Are you an expert in media bias? If not, please, please provide some cites to this plethora of information you have. Could you give me a cite from perhaps The Hindu Times that proclaims German/European newpapers to be completely free of bias, or something like that. A nice comparison and contrast piece would be nice. You stating it, along with your numerous ad homenem attacks do nothing to sway me. All that can be said about your claims is that they are unsubstantiated.
I do find it humorous that you complain about ad homenem attacks when you feel so free to use them yourself.
Where exactly did you live in Dallas? I live in Dallas and you’re painting completely different picture from what I know as Dallas. Perhaps you chose too large a brush to paint with? You couldn’t have gone to SMU, that’s in one of the more affluent section (Highland Park) parts of Dallas. I believe even La Madeleine has a nice selection of papers to read over Croissants and Coffee. UTD? don’t know about that either. The school is in the middle of a huge field, but that Richardson/Dallas area sports a hugely diversified population (Telecom Corridor and all that). Maybe you’re one of “those people” who actually lived in Arlington, Denton, or Sherman[!] and claim to have lived in Dallas. Please illuminate me so I can go first hand and check out your facts. Thanks in advance.
By the measure that they are outsiders.
Look, it doesn’t exactly speak of a lack of bias whining about ad hominem attacks by one side and supporting them on the other. I never said that European papers are free of bias. I said they cover more international affairs, and coverage overlap is greater, in other words: There is more diversity.
I find it humorous when people can’t swallow what they like to dish out. And even more so when people tolerate ultranationalistic slurs of the worst kind while opposing simple strong language from the other side.
Last I checked, the Presbyterian Hospital of Dallas is within Dallas proper. At least it was as of five weeks ago. I lived a few blocks from there. La Madeleine might have a nice selection of papers, but given that fine American patriots demonstrated their great knowledge of business structures by calling for a boycott of La Madeleine because the company caters to a french theme, the impact of their papers could hardly be called relevant when what’s in there is preaching to the choir.
If you live in Dallas, you should get around a bit more. There’s more to Dallas than SMU and UTD. And please, take a hike around the central business district and tell me how many newspaper boxes you find that are NOT Dallas Morning News. (And don’t forget to tell us how many you find that are)