Its hard to determine exactly what was local army tactics and what was the overriding battle orders, and they did learn a bit from the last war. But they still insisted on sending out columns of tanks out to be decimated and did not knock out vital bridges in time. OK they were doomed anyway, but one suspects more boobytraps, hidden positions and street fighting?
Who fights for an unpopular dictator, except those with a gun to their head and those with a vested interest in that dictator staying in power ?
95 - ish % seem to have crumbled away, as the planning teams anticipated. As best I can tell, the whole campaign went better (more according to projections) than is credited.
We saw the same US military / media wobble a week before the Taliban collapsed. It seems to be par for the course.
Except, of course, that those who did crumble crumbled under direct fire, and about a week later than anticipated, rather than crumbling simply because the war has started. Except, of course, that divisions already claimed to have surrendered by the US were still fighting at the time such claims were raised. Who fights for an unpopular dictator? No one. Who fights against an even less popular invader? Quite a few people.
“Quite a few people”. Super. What ?
If you’re arguing that elements of the Iraqi military - who have no vested interest in fighting for this regime - would still oppose the US/UK, please demonstrate ?
And what do you think their rational is; "Lets stick with ‘ole Saddam and get bombed to buggery because another, nicer invader might come along " ?
hmmm rephrase the OP - what could the Iraqis done better to resist the invaders?
Cite?
You see, unfortunately for your argumentation, it is well-documented that Iraqi ex-pats unfettered by Iraqi security, WENT BACK TO IRAQ to defend their home country.
You see -no, obviously, you don’t- people tend to not take lightly if foreign tanks are rolling through their home town and hoisting their flags there. That happens to be true regardless of how brutal a dictator they are relieved off.
ALL the Iraqi expats worldwide? Or just some? The number who went back to fight – is that number significant? Was it, say, 2,000 out of 500,000 (or more) Iraqi expats?
Some Americans went over to Iraq as human shields, too … but they can hardly be thought of as representing America at large.
This happened ONCE, and the flag was quickly removed. Otherwise … cite?
Accusing the Iraqis of using bad tactics is like pitting a Little League team against the New York Yankees, watching them lose 200-0, and then saying they set up their batting order incorrectly.
A lot of Iraqi soldiers DID put up a good fight. Whether Saddam Hussein’s a brutal dictator or not doesn’t change the fact that people will fight to defend their homeland. But they were (are) just hopelessly outmatched.
How many? A few hundred go back while thousands don’t? I’ve also seen footage of Iraqi ex-pats cheering FOR the Americans.
It is telling that you expect women, and the old and infirm to go back, too. There’s plenty of them going back, and plenty of those not going back still opposing the war. I would suggest you take a closer look at demonstrations in Europe. You will find plenty of signs ‘No to Saddam, No to this war’. You can find an Iraqi under just about every such sign.
The flag happened just once, but surely, you don’t want to claim that US tanks only rolled through one Iraqi city?
OliverH is referring to an incident early in the war around Basra, when an Iraqi officer, hoping for better treatment, impersonated the commander of an Iraqi division and “surrendered” the division. For about one day, the US military bought it, then discovered the guy was a fake.
Barring anything else to hang their hat on, people like OliverH are trumpeting the incident as proof that the American military are incompetent/liars, that Saddam is winning the war, that the troops really aren’t in Baghdad, the moon is made of cheese, etc.
What none of OliverH’s ilk can explain is what effect this mistake has had on the course of the war.
Sua
Oliver responded to this. So it is quite sufficient to state that some iraqi ex pats went back, to refute.
So, of the 500,000 Iraqi expats, only 2,000 are able-bodied males? It’s a demographic miracle.
Another demographic miracle - Iraqi expats have taken over Europe.
And a hell of a lot of them have blonde hair and blue eyes.
Sua
Suasponte:
This was reported in the media as 8000 iraqis surrendering. Drawing such conclusions from one guy claiming to be a general rests firmly on your own will to do so.
That certainly boils down to someone being incompetent / a liar in my book.
Thanks for showing so convincingly that all you listen to is propaganda casts. I would suggest getting some basic education about Europe before demonstrating such a truckload of ignorance.
Everyone – I pulled the figures 500,000 and 2,000 out of the air for sake of argument. Those aren’t actual figures.
Note I wrote above: “The number who went back to fight – is that number significant? Was it, say, 2,000 out of 500,000 (or more) Iraqi expats?”
I was asking OliverH if he knew 1) how many Iraqi expats there were worldwide, and 2) how many Iraqi expats returned to Iraq specifically to fight against coalition forces (as opposed to, say, checking on family, friends and property).
Sua:
On Iraqi expats and demonstrations. In the peace demonstration i went in i happened to find myself amongst the kurdish iraqi expats that went… Now the iraqi kurds have no reason to like Saddam. But still these kurds were against the war.
Surely there were also an substansial amount of kurds that were for the war. So Iraqi expat opinion back then was very mixed. Note, though, that these are the people that have fled Saddams regime, those who have most reason to applaud his fall from power.
**
Yeah. They discovered it to be fake when the real commander showed up on TV. AFTER they told the world how great their successes were and that the Iraqis were surrendering in droves.
Ah, sorry, but there’s plenty of stuff to hang one’s head on to prove that the US propaganda machine is running just as much on full power as the Iraqi one.
It is funny that you can rail about Iraqi propaganda on and on, but despite the fact that there’s a truckload of evidence proving US propaganda efforts, up to and including staging events for ‘embedded’ reporters, you do your best claiming that there’s nothing. Heck, you even try to imitate your great idols by doing your best to lie, slander and defamate any dissenters.
Please quote me where I wrote that or retract.
That’s not good enough. You are only giving me your personal perception, and have not established that the number of dissatisfied Iraqi expats is significant. “Plenty” is too vague. Can you give me a concrete number of Iraqi expats who 1) publicly demonstrate that they oppose the war, and 2) have returned to Iraq specifically to fight coalition forces?
BTW, can you cite that there is an Iraqi under “just about every such sign”? You are making extraordinary claims here in GD … you need to back them up.
Nope … I only had issue with your flag-raising statement.