I posted dogs had been used to rape women and as long as someone is contradicting that I feel entitled to affirm it. Don’t blame me for all the cites, blame those who are saying the evidence is insufficient. If someone wishes to continue to deny it I am well entitled to continue to argue that it happened because that is what the evidence shows.
I named the victim, Ayress, who is a well-known human rights activist and who has affirmed on many ocassions that it happened. Including in one decalaration used in the prosecution of Pinochet in London. This is not something obscure. It is well-known and there is plenty of evidence.
Which I think is relevant. Some assert it cannot be done and I assert it has been done and it is relevant to this thread. If that someone wishes to start another thread I will gladly go there but the denials were done here and I feel entitled to respond here.
Those who do not want their posts contradicted would do better to not post. If they want them contradicted in another thread, they can take it to another thread.
As long as we don’t lose sight of the fact that there is absolutely no evidence for ape-rape in Roman times.
The Romans did enough things that were pretty different from what we consider okay now, there’s no need to assume that if an atrocity was possible, they did it.
And again, just because somebody claims that it happened doesnt actually mean something happened. Is there any internal documentation, pictures of the dog raping a man/woman? Any internal memo about how today we had teh dog rape prisoner X?
See, there can be dogs onsite in many capacities, guard dog, companion dog, doesnt mean it was used for rape. Winners frequently claim atrocities performed by losers [the whole rome vs the various conquerored tribes saw a lot of false atrocities being reported that are not upheld by archeology, best is the whole carthaginians sacrificing their young]
Not that I want to particularly disbelieve that it happened, people are very able to be horribly perverse … but just because people talk about it and claim it happened doesnt mean it did. How about physical documentation? scars from dog claws at the waistline, bite marks on teh shoulders and back? Internal memos from the torturers?
Actually, that one’s true - we have archaeological evidence of the Carthaginians sacrificing babies to Ba’al and Tanit. I can get you some cites if you’re interested.
I’m not doubting you, but I would like to see the cites, please.
I will be preaching a sermon, and I wanted to mention some instances of human sacrifice elsewhere. Also, I thought I remember someone or other crucifying his son as a sacrifice to Ba’al - some king or other, IIRC. Does anyone know about that one?
The Minoans also seem to have practiced human sacrifice. The best evidence is at Anemospilia, although there are also children’s bones that look like they were butchered for human consumption at Knossos.
Child-sacrifice at Carthage isn’t uncontroversial, but the scholarly consensus is that it happened (Oxford Classical Dictionary 3rd ed. mentions it under “Carthage” and under “Motya”, a Punic colony).
As for cites, I’m sorry I can’t give you anything linkable (I don’t know any reliable Carthaginian archaeology websites), but I can give you a few in print: Late Carthaginian Child Sacrifice and Sacrificial Monuments in their Mediterranean Context by Shelby Brown, reviewed in The Biblical Archaeologist, Vol. 55, No. 1 (Mar., 1992), pp. 45-46, and from “Phoenician Religion,” by Richard J. Clifford in the Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, No. 279 (Aug., 1990), pp. 55-64:
I think the evidence I have presented is more than sufficient for any reasonable person. Many prisoners agree that it happened, they name the person who did it. They are all identified and many can be located even today. Ayress is a well known activist. If there were any doubts or holes in her story there would be no shortage of deniers using them. A lot of reputable newspapers have carried her story over the years. Why would so many people around the world now conspire to create this lie? How could the get the names of the people involved to be all the same?
Look, if we had the photos and the paperwork you’d claim they were fake. The torturers had a deliberate policy of not keeping records or evidence. Thousands of persons disappeared without a trace.
When some indictments were brought against some of those responsible they claimed there was no proof of the killings and disappearances so they were charged with “continued kidnapping” under the legal fiction that those persons were still alive and the accused was responsible as they were the last persons responsible for the lives of those disappeared.
Many may have saved their lives due to enquiries from abroad. Like this one on behalf of Ayress:
This foreign attention may have saved her life. Many others were not so lucky and were just disappeared.
In my view the evidence that it happened is just very clear. Why would so many reporters, media and other sources conspire to promote this particular lie?
Again, we have plenty of names and many can be looked up. Last I know Ayress and her husband lived in NYC and were activists in favor of human rights.
Don’t get me wrong, all of this is interesting but weren’t we talking about specifically; Romans, Apes, and unfortunate women?
Certainly the Romans did do quite incredible and horrible things to people so buying into this wouldn’t be a stretch. As to whether or not it is physically possible, or even if it would be painful seems, though perhaps possible, likely difficult
(as to pain, given the mechanical dimensions involved, the physical pain of penetration by most other mammals on a human seems low – mental anguish and other physical factors; claws, teeth, weight, etc. might be less pleasant)
But before even discussing all of this possibility I think I’d like to know how we even came up with the original claim… “Romans used Apes to rape women”
Are there several, credible sources (besides HBO :)) using a Latin term to mean “rape” as we know it today (“forced sexual intercourse”)?
Can that term be translated in any other way? (I am not fluent in Latin but understand that some interpretations can have a range).
i.e. Is it possible that this [Latin] term has changed meaning, is an unspecific description of a wild animal attack or similar, violent or unpleasant act?
This thread mentions cases of animals penetrating humans and I remember a funny clip of a guy with his pants down being chased by a horny donkey all over a field. Let me tell you, the intentions of the donkey were unmistakeable.
I’m pretty sure there’s no Latin interpretation in play here. There’s nothing in Latin at all to support any sort of ape-rape claim.
There’s no specific Latin word that I know of that means rape (in the English sense) in every instance, but there are certainly words that are used, at least occasionally, to denote forced sexual intercourse.
You keep saying things like this, but none of your links say this w.r.t. the rapes.
All I’ve seen, is a single first-hand account, in Spanish, so I have to trust that your translation of this account is accurate. The other links either make no mention of animal rape, or mention it anecdotally, not mentioning the source. A couple say “sexual assualt”, which is a whole different kettle of fish.
Try to understand that I have no axe to grind here. I did not work for Pinochet’s regime. I’m just not convinced yet that dog-on-human rape is something that has actually happened.
Was animal rape mentioned in anyone’s charges? I obviously know that training an animal to rape someone is not a specific crime in itself, but you’d think it would get a mention in some of the police / legal proceedings.
There are plenty of cites in English and in Spanish. From plenty of sources. From reputable sources. You just choose not to read them. If this were not true you might come up with some contradictory cite. But no, you have nothing so you just take the tack of the conspiracists and deniers which is to pretend the evidence is insufficient. Training dogs to rape women? Well, maybe they never actually used them to rape women. It was all make-believe. Cites in Spanish? Me no comprendo. A woman claims it was done to her? Who knows what evil intent she may have.
Yes, in the same sense that some people are unconvinced that the holocaust happened. I don’t sprechen sie deutch either. Too bad.
If you had no axe to grind you would not be trying to discredit every cite I post without having any evidence to the contrary. Nothing. Not a single person who has said publicly that Ms. Ayress is a liar who was never raped by a dog.
You just find her arguments “unconvincing”. Yeah. Sure.
Once again you simply assert that the evidence is compelling. What a pointless post.
I didn’t “blame” you, I simply said it was disingenuous.
You saw many definitions that supported my assertion, but kept searching until you found one that supported yours (even though it qualifies its definition with “In the most general sense…”).
It seems obvious to me that you don’t care about the truth of the matter and just want to win the argument and out-pedant me.
It is better than your contradictory evidence which is none. You have no interest in the truth. You are for the defense and all you do is try to poke holes, however implausible, in the evidence presented. You try to find reasons to dismiss everything. I have posted cites in English and you cannot be bothered to read them. Much less in Spanish. You have no interest in truth. Only in the old tactic of “I’m not saying an airplane did not hit the Pentagon, only that I am not convinced”.
The victim is alive and AFAIK lives in New York. You can probably easily call her and talk to her or contact the group she works for. But, of course, you would find her “unconvincing”. Nobody else has found her unconvincing enough to contradict her statements. Only you.
Well, if the question here is “Did the Romans really train apes to rape women?” and the only convincing evidence has to be in the form of photos of the actual events and the actual written orders (no photocopies allowed) of the emperor’s orders plus the paperwork showing it had been carried out, all with mugshots, names, addresses and phone numbers of the victims plus the notarized vet certificates showing these were actual Apes and not merely look-alikes or sound-alikes, then I think we can safely say the answer is NO and close the thread.