Had this report from Singapore said that American law enforcement agencies been more successful at getting gangmembers flip on their comrades than the Gestapo was at getting members of the various resistance groups to flip you’d have a point but you haven’t so you don’t.
Anyway, I’ll take your refusal to address the point law enforcement agencies using “normal interrogation techniques” have been less successful than the Gestapo as concession that those who say that torture works are correct.
Don’t be embarrassed about doing so, conceding that the FBI, the LAPD and the British intelligence services arrayed against the IRA have been less successful using normal interrogation techniques than the Stasi, the KGB, and the Gestapo doesn’t mean we should adopt torture.
Similarly, we shouldn’t try and redefine it to make it more acceptable by saying using threats of death or maiming to get information doesn’t constitute torture.
Now if you wish to persist in arguing that LAPD detectives and FBI agents have had more success as interrogators than members of the Stasi and the KGB, well go ahead, but I’ll be honest. I don’t think any reasonable person will be able to take such a suggestion seriously.
No, I’m not making that point, you need a cite for your assertion that the Stasi or KGB had more success. But in reality you are just tap dancing in an attempt to distract others into not noticing that one huge component of your position is a fantasy.
The Gestapo failed with torture when compared to the ways they usually relied on getting information.
Gangs and Organized Crime have been harmed by infiltrating the group. They get inside and become part of the gang and get all the information. They did not waterboard any mafia chiefs, yet they got all they needed.
Have you found any cites at all for the claims you’ve made in this thread? So far, all the cites(and not just a bunch of newspaper articles, as Rand Rover keeps repeating) seem to support the ideas that
Water boarding is torture, and
Torture is not an effective way to gather accurate information.
You seriously think that the LAPD has been more successful at getting gangmembers to flip on one another than the Gestapo was at getting members of the French resistance to give up members or the KGB to get captured dissidents to cough up the names of other dissidents?
Damn, next you’re going to ask me to prove that water is wet.
I need to prove that the KGB and the Stasi were effective at “breaking” suspects.
Thanks for giving me a great laugh.
Anyway I’m glad with your “I’m not making that point” that you’re conceding that interrogators employed by US law enforcement agencies in the US have been less successful than interrogators employed by the KGB, the Stasi, the Gestapo etc.
Up till then you appeared to be aggressively in denial of reality.
Perhaps if you’d met people who’d been tortured, as I have, you wouldn’t be so sure it didn’t work.
The results of the Gestapo when using torture where pathetic, so yes, it leads one to conclude that you do need a cite. Mind you, I do think that you are comparing apples and oranges when you are using the LAPD.
On the contrary, I’m the one laughing as you are demonstrating to all that you have noting to support what you are saying.
As the researcher pointed out he “spent more than a decade collecting all the cases of Gestapo torture “successes” in multiple languages; the number is small and the results pathetic, especially compared with the devastating effects of public cooperation and informers.”
It is clear that you need a cite to support your say so’s. Denying that just helps my position.
And that is why you are really the one unable to find a cite for what you are claiming.
Nope, you are denying the reality that the Gestapo was more successful thanks to regular and illegal ways to obtaining information (the illegal ways that did not use torture) Once torture was widely used by the Gestapo thanks to the desperation brought by the loss of competent interrogators due to war, the results were pathetic.
Ok, so then you are saying that the Gestapo has been less successful than the LAPD at getting information out of suspects?
Can you please show me evidence to document that the LAPD has been more successful at going after the Bloods and the Crips?
Even the research paper that you’re waving around admits that the Gestapo crushed the French resistance which took them a couple of years whereas the LAPD hasn’t been able to do that to gangs despite decades of work.
Sorry, you’ve lost the argument.
Stop insulting the people I know who’ve been tortured and testify to it’s effectiveness and just say we shouldn’t engage in torture because it’s wrong.
It’s a far more courageous stand and doesn’t insult the victims of torture.
You flail, you screech, you yell, you point wildly all over the place. You make pathetic attempts to divert attention away from the fact that you can’t back up your claims with cites. If I can provide a cite that water is wet, will you either back up your claims, or admit that you can’t?
Your position is really silly when even your “gotcha” attempts are not even that, everyone can see that you completely misinterpreted that line as supportive of your point when in reality it says the opposite of what you are claiming.
Why don’t you stop throwing out this straw man? No one has made the claim that torture is not “effective” at what it does–inflicting grievous pain and harm on people. The claim is that while it sometimes has gotten people to give up information that they would normally hide, it also gets them to give up false information, saying anything the torturers want to hear to escape the pain. No one you know has been insulted by any post, here, (except, perhaps, yours, since you appear to wish to rationalize your acquaintances’ experience in favor of their abusers).
Your comparison of resistance movements to gangs fails on the fact that the LAPD is still bound by rules of law in rgards to actions they can take against gangs, while the various secret police agencies were able to simply take and hold (or kill) anyone about whom they had a suspicion, (regardless of whether they then tortured them). You have also consistently repeated the assertion that the secret police were successful without actually providing any support for that claim.