Cite?
And explain what you mean by good feedback.
By good feedback I mean that torturing to get independently verifiable information can work.
Interesting fact: my broken clock provides me accurate information on what time it is if you twist its little clock testicles in just the right way. Of course, it lies a lot so I have to independently verify the information it gives me by going out and asking someone the time.
But on the whole, a solid piece of time keeping equipment that clock.
Yeah, and look at all the satisfaction you can get from twisting its clockish testicles. Nasty, evil, rotten little clock. It obviously needs twisting. It’s been plotting The End Of Days ™ for a long, long time.
Thats a stupid analogy. Getting the correct information wasn’t coincidental.
When I torture you to find out where the dead bodies are buried, and you tell me where the dead bodies are buried. You didn’t keep throwing out random locations until you happened to guess the right location. You knew where they were buried, I tortured you until you told me exactly where they were buried. You told me where they were because you knew I would find out if you lied and i would torture you even more if you lied to me.
Its amazing. When it seemed like torture may have led to the death of bin laden, people were like “noone ever said torture never works, there are other reasons not to use torture” and now that the bin Laden link to torture is in doubt, all the “torture never works” folks start piping up again.
It is incontrovertible fact that torture can work, you can argue whether this is the best method to use in a given situation or if the harm done by torture to your reputation and your soul is worth whatever advantage torture provides over other interrogation methods, but you can’t short circuit the argument by pretending that torture doesn’t even work.
If I squeeze your balls or better yet your son’s balls, you will tell me the combination to the safe in your office.
My ghod-it’s as if a half dozen threads on this subject have disappeared from reality and we are starting over from scratch.
Lobo, you’re continuing to think very shallowly here. You really want him to provide a cite for the claim that torture “can” provide reliable information?
My ghod, it’s as if some people are able to actually separate out the issues of (i) whether EITs should be used as a policy matter and (ii) whether it’s effective instead of just screaming like a ninny.
I asked for a cite that it provides reliable information with feedback. And to explain what he meant by feedback.
I appreciate that you really, really want to deflect attention from your embarrassing failures in this thread, but please don’t bother asking me questions unless you decide to accept factual information.
You have shown time and time again in this thread that you have no intention of debating and simply want to revel in your fact-less ideological positions.
He didn’t claim that it provides reliable information with feedback.
Nope. What I’ve shown is that I have the ability to think in a more nuanced manner than many other people who’ve participated in this thread. I also have the ability to determine whether someone is making a claim and the exact nature of the claim they are making. You’ve demonstrated you can’t do any of that.
I admit I haven’t been following this thread much but just a few posts ago he said:
[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi]
But it can also provide reliable information if there is good feedback.
[/QUOTE]
Yep, he did say that. Can you spot the difference between what he said and what Lobo said he said?
Good that could be one for your side, care to check then the evidence on how torture gave us the Iraq war and a million dead?
Because as nuanced as it goes, I already posted that torture might work, but it is like a lottery.
The lottery is still called the “fools tax” regardless if someone is a winner, it is foolish to claim that torture works on the levels you are assuming it could.
Please, people, it isn’t torture, it’s “enhanced interrogation techniques” when you want to pretend your hands are clean. And Santorum says McCain doesn’t understand them. :D:D:D:D:D
Rand Rover, you will stop the personal attacks on other posters in this thread.
Lobohan, you will also stop telling other posters what they have or have not said.
[ /Moderating ]
That’s not the point.
The point is, if I tell you “Miami AAAARGH no wait they’re in Seattle AAAAAARGH ok ok you got me they’re in NYC”, you have no idea which one is correct. Maybe I was being truthful the first time. Maybe I bluffed but your second twist really got to me. Maybe the third lead was just me throwing out what I thought you wanted me to say.
So now you have to send people in every single location I designate, and remember: I’m giving you a new one each time you even look at my nuts sideways. Either because I know something important and I’m tough enough to hide it, or because I know something important and you didn’t believe me when I told you, or because I know jack shit. You have no way to know.
So, really, torture only “works” inasmuch as you might have gotten the same amount of *actual *shit done by casting a purely random net of investigations at the wall to see what sticks. Or, y’know, perhaps done a professional one, checked my past, where I’ve been, where I’ve gone, who are my contacts, where they might be etc… without asking me the time of day. That works too.
But dawg, that shit takes time, can’t we just fry his nuts ?! **Damuri **says it works !
Nonsense. First, it’s quite possible he never knew where the dead bodies were in the first place, and is making them up because he has no other option. Second, he has no reason to think you’ll realize he told the truth and will stop torturing him even if he knows and tells you. Third, he has no reason to assume that you won’t keep right on torturing him just for the fun of it no matter what he says. Fourth, the odds are excellent that you already have kept on torturing him after he gave a correct answer. And fifth, extreme stress like torture distorts the rational process and memory; he isn’t going to be calmly weighing the options about what he should say, and his memory will rapidly become unreliable.
Torture has no such advantages.
And you know what? You’ll probably get it wrong under that kind of stress. You may well forget it entirely.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/05/19/cia-chiefs-letter-confirms-torture-did-not-lead-to-osama-bin-laden/
Leon Penetta sets the standard. he is head of the CIA. He says waterboarding had nothing to do with the Osama killing. On the other hand you have Hannity and Rush Limburger. They certainly have the gravitas to counter the head of the CIA. For a dead head right winger.
I’ve seen those threads and in every one, people simply state “torture doesn’t work, I have a cite where some guys says so” I provide a cite that says it does work and the response is “you’re going to believe a torturer? Those guys are scum, you can’t believe a single thing they say”
Of course torture works in some cases, the question has always been, is it the best (or even an effective) method in this particular case.
I only need one to take the position that torture can work. You seem to think that torture is like that broken clock. If it works its merely by happenstance, other methods would necessarily have been better (or even effective). I come from a country where torture has been used for all sorts of things, from extracting information you don’t want to divulge to punishing dissidents and the problem is that even if you start with the former there is a very slippery slope to the latter. But, saying, “oh getting information from torture is like winning a lottery” is a bit silly. Under the right circumstances, I can place a high degree of confidence on the information I get from torture.
Note I am NOT saying that torture ALWAYS works or that torture is always the best method of interrogation or even that torture can’t sometimes make matters worse but it can work and it can be reliable.
So once again, I think torture can work, it can be reliable but it might be a bad idea to use it anyway because it is pretty evil.