Did whispering on submarines really make a difference?

Factual Questions
61

Actually, the Ruskies were not told how the US makes quiet props, just that the US could easily hear the Russian subs, and their probs in particular. (The quote I remember was that before this they literally went around the oceans banging around, ignorant of how loud they were.)

Armed with this knowledge, the Russians went on an extremely effective mission to quiet down their subs. To make quiet props, they purchased sophisticated multi-axis milling machines from Toshiba, who blatantly ignored treaties by selling the Russians this technology. Even though the cold war is over, and Toshiba makes good laptops & TVs, I will never buy anything from them.

62

The United States has spent an enormous amount of money
over the years in the “black budget” to wire the oceans
for sound. It was successful.

The sound from the prop turning is cavitation in which
the turbulence from the prop creates low pressure areas
which give up their atmosphere in solution and creates
bubbles which make a lot of noise. Cavitation is
diminished by using certain prop designs, sizes, and
certain speed limitations on the prop.

63

Interesting how this thread was dormant for over a month and suddenly resuscitates.

64

And on that subject, I’d like to congratulate this crew on your silence during this crucial mission. Thanks to your dedication and efforts, we were able to remain stealthy enough to complete our mission of getting this thread into the Threadspotting feature on the SD front page.

Good work, all!

65

Titanium is fantastically expensive (compared to steel) and generally prohibitive for shipbuilding. However, since the world’s largest known titanium deposits are in Russia, the costs are relative. The Alfas were not the only Soviet subs fashioned from titanium; the Typhoon class of ballistic missle boats (subs are never called ships) are constructed mainly of it as well.

As far as the Alfa’s resistance to torpedoes, the main concern was that it was fast enough to outlast a torpedo (Mk46=~45kts, Alfa=~40kts). This was one of the reasons the British designed their Spearfish torpedo with a top speed of at least 50 knots. All modern torpedoes use a shaped-charge warhead capable of penetrating more armor than is carried by any warship today. There was major concern about the Typhoons, since they are double-hulled and the dead space between the hulls disipates the energy of the warhead. The Typhoon is a huge boat (800+ ft) and even one good hit would probably not be enough to sink one. Add the insulative effect of two titanium hulls and American and British sub skippers would probably be prepared to fire three or four shots at one to get a better chance at a kill.

One further note about the Alfa: they used a revolutionary reactor design which turned out to be hellishly difficult to service. The last report I saw said that all of them had been laid up alongside in port for several years and that none were servicable any more. The Russian fleet is a pale shadow of what it was ten years ago.

66

Yeah, but something weird is going on there, 'cos that version varies from the director’s cut that was released on video some years back, at least if you watch it with the English subtitles. Notably, the language has been tidied up. Irritating. In the original Director’s Cut version I saw, you had that Nazi-guy complaining to the captain about the sailors on the side of the road: “It was most extraordinary. They… they…” and the captain smiles and says, “They pissed on you? Me too.” On the DVD version, that line is changed to “They initiated you?..”

Not quite the same, somehow.

I noticed several other minor changes of the same nature, which frankly made me want to go learn German so I could watch one of the finest films ever made exactly how the director intended.

Stompy

67

I was on an ancient ((by todays standards)) 637 class fast attack Sub.Most submarines are tracked and identified by sound frequencies the sonar girls called “tonals”.American Frequencies were around 60 Hz…europeans around 55-57Hz.These Tonals were produced mainly by electrical gear,pumps,turbine generators…etc.Transient noise was sometimes heard(hatch slammings,etc)…but hard to track.You’d just get a relative bearing from a transient sound.Tonals could give you course,speed and bearing by the way the freqs changed as the sub closed or opened in distance.((called the Doppler effect)).So,IMHO, I don’t think whispering,even if it could be heard,would cause much damage.

68

Doh! Slip of the finger (on the 10-key number section on the right side of the keyboard). I meant 600 feet. Typhoons are bigger than our Ohios, though.

Semi related question: why are all subs (even 600+ ft boomers) always called “boat” and never “ship”?

69

The Russians did. (Of the six that were built, several have been discarded; three may stay in service as “test platforms”.)

I believe you, Gunslinger, when you say it was a typo. You’re right, Typhoons are longer than our Ohios, by 2.7 feet. (They displace 21,500 tons compared to 16,600 for Ohios.)
What’s your excuse, sewalk?

I hear massive exaggerations of Russian submarines all the time (“the Akula has been clocked at 80 knots” - what, was it in free-fall? “the missile room is bigger than a football field” - bigger? ya mean, like, taller?) I just wonder where they come from. A masochistic desire to brag about the (ex-)enemy? Hmm. Italians do it too, apparently: “We know very well that the Soviet navy is today the most powerfull Navy in the world”.

I don’t believe the Typhoons had titanim hulls. Hazegray mentions several types of Russian subs with titanium hulls; Alfa and Sierra classes are among them, Typhoon is not. I have seen plenty of information on Typhoons, and none of them has asserted that they were made of titanium.

Interesting question, Gunslinger. My guess is that it is tradition; the first several generations of submarines were quite tiny, especially to navies used to looking at dreadnoughts. Also, people expecting “ships” to be on the surface (unless something has gone seriously wrong).

70

So after watching this Q accumulate nearly 3,000 views and 68 replies, I figured, Okay, let me see what all the fuss is about.

Kinda interesting, I thought after I read the whole thing… but nobody answered the best question on the thread! egkelly wrote:

“For all you WWII sub buffs-in the movie “DAS BOOT”, there is a scene where they take a deep dive (the depth gauge reads in the RED zone. At this great depth, they hull starts making creaking noises as it contracts under the pressure-then you hear sounds like rifle shots-the bolts securing the hull plates to the frame start shearing off-is this true? I’ve never heard of any WWII submariner reporting such a thing-seems to me that this the last thing you would hear before the sea rushed in!”

I want to know this too! Does this happen, or is it just Hollywood bunk?

Incidentally, a friend of mine who saw U571 sez that EVERY submarine movie he’s ever seen has the same three scenes and they just mix up the order:

  1. the go-too-deep scene
  2. the oh-no-here-come-the-depth-charges scene, and
  3. the let’s-fool-'em-with-debris-out-the-torpedo-tube scene.

He’s right.

71

I’m pretty sure that the Typhoons are plain ol’ (as plain as these kinds of things get, anyway) steel. Titanium’s too expensive and hard to work with on that scale. Besides, when you get that much of it, steel is strong enough.

72

Gunslinger, I had the impression that a ship was a boat that was big enough to launch another boat. Could subs be considered boats because they don’t carry launches or because they can’t release a boat underwater?

73

Subs can launch smaller boats–for example, there’s a rescue vehicle that can be carried down and launched from a sub, and they “deliver” SEALS and their boats…

74

Scratch one pet theory…

75

I always thought the “boat” thing was just because submariners are…umm…a few nails short of a keg (IOW, right up there with paratroopers on the crazy list).

76

The use of the term boat to describe submarines may be partially inspired by the derisive term “pig boat” which was used by surface types in the pre-nuclear era to describe subs. A closed cylinder full of diesel engines and sweaty men would have a certain aroma, I’d imagine.

77

Old sub joke: Q. Surface sailors call submariners “bubbleheads”. What do sub sailors call surface sailors?
A. “Targets” :slight_smile:

78

Umbriel said:

On October 11, 1942 (Tokyo date), the Japanese submarine I-25 spotted two submarines on the surface, about 800 miles west of Cape Flattery, WA. Assuming they were US, the Japanese captain (Tagami) fired his last torpedo, and hit the Soviet sub L-16.

Interestingly, a Japanese torpedoman, one Aizawa, reported that the explosion was terrific (the range was only about 500 yards), and that the blast cracked instrument glass, light bulbs and even the porcelain toilet bowls on board the I-25!

There was one USN casualty in the action: a Russian-born American citizen, Chief Sergei Mihailoff, joined L-16 at Dutch Harbour, Alaska, as an interpreter.

The Japanese reported one US sub sunk, and did not learn the true identity of the Soviet sub until after the war.

Source for the above Silent Siege by Bert Webber.

79

I’ve been in the US nuclear sub fleet for over ten years now (two Tridents and an older missile boat) - in fact, I’m sitting not 200 yards from one as I write. I’d just like to say that this is, by and large, a very well-informed and rational discussion. That said, here’s my fill-in on a few points:

High-speed Alfas:
Yup, 40 knots might have saved them for a while. But since 1972, when they deployed the Mk 48 torpedo (see http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/weapons/wep-torp.html), the top speed of that fish has been, well let’s just say a good bit faster. And when the Advanced Capacity (ADCAP) was introduced about a decade ago, that raised the bar to a whole lotta bunch faster. 'nuff said - I could get in trouble here.

Titanium hulls vs. multiple hits
The way modern fish warheads work is primarily by exploding underneath the hull of the victim (as pointed out by brad_d). However, the intent is to vaporize not the metal hull itself, but a large void of water out from underneath the keel of the target. Suddenly, the middle portion of it lacks a great deal of support, is buoyed up mainly by the ends a good distance away, and - kKrracKK!! - breaks in twain, allowing the innards out and the water into the people tank, titanium or no.

Ricocheting bolts at depth
Assuming these bolts were holding back the pressure of the sea itself, the next sound might be an inrush of water. But modern designs are very careful to be sure that anything that will see submergence pressure is held together by welds only. No bolts to go flying around. What may be happening is the distortion of the hull’s shape by pressure causing bolted-together frames, decks, etc., shear past each other far enough to snap those bolts. And, yes, the hull does distort. One US boat suffered enough of a peace-time accidental depth excursion that when it came back to port all the frames along the keel could be seen through the skin of the hull, like ribs on a starving dog.

Disparity in missile size
Casdave said:

Sorry, pal, but those 44-footers aren’t for shooting at YOU. They’re for raining hot nuclear death on the guy 4,500 miles behind you. To shoot you we use the standard 21-foot Mk 48 torpedo, not missiles.
So there’s my mini-SD for all you Teeming Landlubbers.
P.S. It’s true about Toshiba. I, too, will never give them another dollar, if I can avoid it. Tell your friends and neighbors.

80

>>EVERY submarine movie he’s ever seen has the same three scenes and they just mix up the order:

  1. the go-too-deep scene
  2. the oh-no-here-come-the-depth-charges scene, and
  3. the let’s-fool-'em-with-debris-out-the-torpedo-tube scene.
    Then there’s the having to submerge so fast they barely have time to close the hatch and a load of water comes in and also the typical periscope scenes: up periscope, scan the horizon, detect a ship, ask the next guy if he also believes it to be an enemy ship, ok, prepare torpedos, torpedos ready, fire, etc

when I was a kid I always found these orders relayed like this kind of comical. Skipper says “prepare torpedo #1” and ten men relay the order down the sub to the guy at the tube who says "torpedo #1 ready!"and the same ten men relay it back! You’d think they could have a telephone and leave those men on shore if all they’re good for is repeating orders. Or if telephones do not work under water maybe train parrots…