Polycarp, you rock. Seriously, man, your post moved me. I’m printing and saving your OP.
That’s all I’ve got to say.
Location, location, location.
I’ve disagreed with you rather strongly at times, but I agree with you completely on this. I’ve met Christians on line who believe that questioning one’s faith is morally wrong. To me, not questioning, not looking for more information, not reading the Bible and commentaries on it, and, instead, just taking someone else’s word for what it means is to directly disobey Christ in that I’m not loving Him with all my mind as well as all my heart. I’m a proponent of evolution. To not investigate how the world is put together and try to figure it out, but instead accept the contradictory accounts in Genesis 1 and 2 without going any further is failing to use my mind to love God.
In the parable of the talents, Jesus spoke of people being given certain things and what they did with them. The one to whom he gave the most credit was the one who invested his talents and used them. Among the talents Jesus has given me is an open, inquiring mind which can’t resist a good puzzle or a good arguement, not to mention a ridiculously large sense of curiousity. For me to bury that questioning heart and curious mind as some Christians would have me do would be the equivalent of burying my talents in the sand. God made me as I am. I’ve no doubt I can be infuriating at times, and I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that sometimes He’s highly amused at the fixes I get myself into. Remember, I’m a Christian whose closest male friend is a Wiccan, whom some would accuse of working for the Enemy. On more than one occaision, I’ve looked heavenward and said, “OK, but You explain this to the fundamentalists!” 
I am as God made me, questioning mind and all.
Vlad/Igor when I was younger when I prayed the Lord’s Prayer and would come to the line “and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”* I would sometimes add “and maybe a bit better.” I came into the adult world with nearly nonexistent self esteem and a vague feeling that I was worthless. During the past 4 years, I’ve been on a rather remarkable spiritual journey, made possible, in part, by that Wiccan I mentioned. To echo that song, learning to love myself may have been the hardest part of all. I still remember lying on a bed in a hotel after a Mensa RG planning on killing myself because I had been laid off, the things I had to do for the RG were done, and I could see no point in continuing. My Wiccan friend was by my side.
“Does Jesus forgive you?” he asked me.
“Yes,” I stammered out eventually.
“Then can you not forgive yourself?” he asked. “Are you greater than Jesus?”
I would still like to go on record as saying it’s not technically fair when Jesus borrows a Wiccan to convince a Christian to hang around for a while!
I’ve come to see why some people need a judgemental God who will assure them that they are absolutely RIGHT regardless of what they see in the world or what they’ve done. For me, if God’s judgement of me had been as harsh as my own, I would not be alive now. Instead, when I had nothing but darkness, screaming, pain, and terror, He showed me mercy, grace, comfort and healing. When I had nowhere else to go, He gave me a place to feel welcome. If God’s Grace was sufficient for me, a lost, stubborn, literally hopeless, dying sinner, then I cannot deny His grace to others because if I do, I directly disobey the Commandment Christ though was so important He placed it second only to loving God.
I’ll side with Sample_the_Dog and say I prefer the Dolly Parton version to the Whitney Houston version (Dolly Parton understands the importance of dynamic range, rather than just doing the whole thing at full blast). However, my fondest memories of the song “The Greatest Love of All” are of playing it on the piano while I tried to find a way to do it.
I’ll leave off with a good, old, Episcopal standard:
“Oh, love, how deep, how broad how high
How passing thought and fantasy
That God, the Son of God should take
Our mortal form for mortals’ sake.”
CJ
Aw, c’mon, man! Think of what a great collectible that shirt would be! 
Fair, schmair, you opened yourself up for it!
Let’s face it, once you believe that salvation and damnation are a bit more complicated than “Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Savior?” then you accept that other books besides the Bible and the Sinister Buttock series may have things to teach you, and that even people who haven’t accepted Christ as their savior might have some wisdom to share that will help a Christian such as you or me on our spiritual journey. And the next thing you know, some tree-hugging Wiccan is giving you the insight you need to hang around this world for awhile longer.
God will use just about anything to bring us around. He’s sneaky like that. Gotta watch Him every minute if you’re trying to keep away from Him.
**zev steinhardt ** and Vlad/Igor, thank you for your words and advice. I was brought up to believe that I was born with more self-love than I would ever need (which has so far turned out to be the case, actually), and my parents imbued me with even more. I don’t think religious conviction cannot * make me a better person, I just think that (if this makes any sense) it is more important to do good than to be good, but that the latter is much harder and more subtle. I suspect that this is the only world I shall ever know, and it just kills me sometimes that with all my good intentions I can help at most only a few, and that for a very short time. This reeks of egotism: Why wasn’t I born King? Full disclosure: it also bugs me that I can’t provide better for myself and my family, whom I consider first. I contribute to a couple of charities, work at the local food bank once a month and I give generous amounts of worthless consideration to everything else. I no longer know my neighbors, even metaphorically. I cannot count my few acts of kindness against my many thoughtless or considered cruelties. And I frankly don’t know anymore whether salvation exists or how it can be achieved. Something tells me that this should not matter to me, but at the same time, sometimes, I become very afraid. And I’m ashamed of that.
Hey, “Fair” is getting justice. God’s a lot nicer than that! 
It’s getting scary around here when RTFirefly starts channeling Francis Thompson!
So Saul’s vision has less weight than Moses at Sinai?
And Jesus was less capable at instructing his disciples after his death? Rats. There goes the book of Revelation. And the ecumenical councils are right out.
What other parts of the Bible have you discounted?
emarkp, you’re being disingenuous. Very disingenuous.
Just because someone doesn’t believe the Bible is 100% literal, infallible and accurate, does not mean that their faith is any less than someone who does. Not that it matters, but personally I’m inclined to respect literalists less, because I see them as simple-minded.
Back on topic, did you even read this thread? Like what Happy Scrappy or Siege said? Do you feel like casting aspersions on their faiths, too?
Why does it go in that order? It seems to me that expressing love to others could also lead one to seek divine love, and as such, it kind of works in the opposite direction. Who’s to say it has to go in one direction, God could work both ways.
Well, it isn’t the Bible, but there’s a number of Christians discounting the Book of Mormon/Doctrine & Covenants/Pearl of Great Price. What is being lost through also disregarding these texts?
No I’m not. It’s a sincere question. I’m trying to understand Polycarp’s comment in more detail.
I didn’t state or imply that. Furthermore, I don’t know of anyone who believes that (even Jesus said he used parables).
Quite a bit actually. But then I’m LDS and consider those books to be scripture as well.
But let me use that to clarify what I said. I believe that Joseph Smith and his successors are prophets just as Moses was. If I didn’t believe that, then the LDS extra-biblical scripture would have no value to me (as is the case for most Christians). So why discount Paul unless Paul wasn’t actually instructed by the risen Lord has he claimed? Also, the ecumenical councils made no claims of revelation and hence were of even lower value than Paul’s writings (if this is how we’re measuring things).
In that case, I am sorry I jumped the gun. Perhaps I have a bee in my bonnet. Removes bonnet and examines inside
Now that I am back from my bonnet adventure, let me clarify.
Different denominations are always fighting over who is The Most Christian. This is obvious to anyone who has read a Chick tract. I interpreted your post as a “Christian-er than thou” sort of thing, and I reacted accordingly. Please accept my apologies.
And if you spent more time in The Pit, I bet you’d get an earful about those literalists. They exist, and they’re scary.
What does make a prophet a prophet then? How is Paul different from Joseph Smith, as neither of them spoke directly to the living Christ?
If one accepts the writings of Paul as scripture, but not the writings of Joseph Smith, I don’t see that as any different than picking and choosing in other respects. So in a way, there’s a lot of choosing what to accept and what not to accept going on even in other respects, and yet, it seems that the basic message of loving God and others still shines through.
Maybe instead of tossing out parts of scripture, scripture is instead being distilled and simplified.
A good question, though beyond the scope of this thread. If you start another one, I’d be happy to participate.
The primary difference is that Paul was accepted among the Apostles who were disciples of Christ during his ministry. If they accepted him, why should modern christians “demote” him?
To a modern Christian though, the canonization process has led to having a body of scripture in the Bible. Joseph Smith’s writings didn’t go through that process, and so it seems reasonable to me that a non-Mormon Christian would require more proof for the Book of Mormon than for (say) 1 Corinthians.
Which is a fancy way of saying the same thing IMHO. But if you want a longer thread about how to know a prophet or how to separate scripture from non-inspired works, go ahead and start one.
My question was largely directed at Polycarp and any other who agree with his comments in this thread.
Just a brief note that the thread has been created: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=297238
Well, emarkp, I took it as a snide accusation at first, and was not planning to respond, because I refused to get inveigled into that sort of catfight.
However, now that you’ve spelled out your concern a bit more, I’ll have to say that the problem lies in differing understandings of the nature of inspiration.
And I’m not sure how much detail or major a dispute you want to get into over that.
But bottom line, here’s my stance:
The Bible is a collection of books.
God inspired their authors.
But when I say that, I do not mean that he: (a) verbally dictated the contents, (b) by a sort of spiritual programming, compelled the wording of the contents, © by a sort of Prophetic and Apostolic Infallibility Doctrine, kept its authors from falling into error in its writing, or (d) inspired them only in the sense that Katharine Bates’ patriotism inspires me as an American.
They were men following God to the best of their ability, who wrote what they felt called to write in the varying circumstances of the books’ composition. His truth shines out from some passages in a way that cannot be mistaken.
But along with that, they were left to do His work in writing, just as you and I are in speaking of our understanding of God’s will – sometimes feeling a sense of His guidance and complying with it, sometimes not.
And the products those men turned out are, therefore, a mixture of diamonds and dross. The reader is obliged to bring his own skills, prayer, scholarship, perhaps teaching authority from his church, and above all discernment to the task of “rightly dividing Scripture.”
However, what God expects of humans – radical trust in Him and right behavior towards others – is not such that this sort of study need be a duty of those who do not feel called to do so. They are of course welcome to but not obliged to.
What must be avoided is the idea of taking it as a sort of sacrosanct mine full of high-grade ore from which God’s Word may be extracted by the simple process of opening at random. What you’re apt to run across is Jeremiah’s misanthropy, Nahum’s xenophobia, Paul’s marinating in his own guilt…
The human writers convey God’s word to us – mixed with their own opinions and narrow views. And it may take some refining to tell the one from the other.
**King of Soup[/],
Let me explain by way of story/parable what I mean. Many years ago, I worked with a woman who one day told me a girl she knew was pregnant. The girl’s father was a very well-known person regionally, and had gone through a very public divorce several years before. Due to her father’s career and marital problems, this girl did not receive a lot of attention, time or support from her parents. She was just out of high school, without job or any plan for the future, and the boyfriend had already cut and run. The woman I worked with said “Well, she will have a baby to love.”
My reaction, not verbalized, was “How is she going to know how to love her baby if she never felt love from her parents?” For humans, love is instinctive but not automatic. It has to be learned, and anyone growing up in an abusive home will tell you that at some point they have found it hard to express, accept or feel love because they were not loved at home.
I have met a number of Christians who were eager to tell me that they were born again, but after a few moments I saw that they had no self love. In between the obligatory Christian Words were flashes of self-loathing and castigation that made their sentiments and words hollow. I have heard some pretty vile hatred expressed by some of these Christians who were angry and bitter, who felt empty after years of loving their neighbors and enemies without feeling any love within themselves.
I don’t think there’s anyone around here who hasn’t wrestled with bad thoughts, intentions or benign neglect. One of the functions of religious beliefs is to help us do and think more good than bad. There needs to be a balance between internal feelings and the actions they inspire so that one doesn’t overrun the other.
I think there’s a second issue wrapped up in this, King. It is one of gifts and discernment. That is, it sounds to me like you’re having trouble matching your desire to act with your gifts with how to use those gifts to help others. I used to think that the true Christian way to act was to feed the hungry, clothe the needy and give money to the poor. While I was focusing on those particular people that I wasn’t in a position to help, I was ignoring the people right next to me who needed help just as much. I couldn’t do much to help the hungry, needy and poor, but I could a lot more for those I was ignoring. I have since changed my focus so that what I have to offer goes to the people who need it the most.
If you want to discuss this more, please feel free to e-mail me off-board.
Vlad/Igor
Okay, I’m with you so far–with one caveat: there are places in which God did dicate the contents, but they are clearly labeled (Revelation 1:11 for instance).
Okay–what was the best of their ability? I agree that revelation is filtered through the people who receive the revelation. However, I don’t believe God will select a person to spread his message who would filter things too much. That is, while I don’t believe scripture to be inerrant, nor do I believe it to be too far off the mark.
I suppose this is for the other thread, but how is it not mistaken?
So the authors of the Bible (let’s say those who weren’t with Jesus in his ministry) had no advantage over you and I? Or, our words have equal weight as theirs?
Agreed completely–there’s always the danger of reading Matthew 27:5 and then Luke 10:37. Scripture was written in a context and needs to be read in context as well.
Now this is a point on which I think I disagree. While I do agree that the person is a filter and will color revelation, I do not accept that inspired writings are significantly off the mark or unprofitable. Furthermore, Paul did at least indicate where he offered his opinion, rather than official church doctrine.
I think I’ll respond to some of your comments in the other thread. However, while this is all good in general, I was first asking specifically about Paul, and your disparaging of his writings apparently because he did not meet Jesus during his ministry.
Do you see Paul’s writings inferior because he wasn’t acquainted with Jesus in mortaliy? Can you elaborate on your comment “(especially since he didn’t meet Him until after His death)”?
No, that wasn’t my intent at all. I merely intended to observe that Paul had no give-and-take dialogue relationship with the human Jesus while he was on Earth, as the survivors of the Twelve did, but rather seems to be fixated on the mystical Christ imagery that pervades his Christology, an almost Docetist stance. He nearly never references the ministry and teachings of the real-life Jesus who walked the Earth a decade or two before his ministry (the one exception is the Words of Institution for the communion service). It’s almost as if he’s trying to fit Jesus into a preconceived Savior-and-Mystical-Body imagery. (Please note I’m not calling him heretical, just strongly focused on a particular imagery and metaphor set to the exclusion of a more down-to-earth preaching on Jesus’s own teachings.)
Does that apply to getting a BJ?
Personally, I prefer to say “Don’t do to others what you don’t want to be done to you”.
The problem with Polycarp quote is that someone who is into S & M is going to expect me do the same. I have no wish to be at the receiving end of that.