I think they go together - there are certainly some wealthy Hasids but I don’t think enough to support the whole community with charity. If there was no public assistance available, they would have to provide enough education for those children to be able to support themselves when they are grown.
I’m not one of the people in this thread who’s too het up about their schools. I’m more incensed about their embezzling our tax dollars.
It bothers me that the story cited says at one point
Hasidic boys’ schools are not a monolith. Their attitudes toward nonreligious education can vary from neighborhood to neighborhood.
but reads at most points as if they are indeed talking about such schools as a monolith.
I don’t know enough about the Hasidim to really discuss them.
Copy that for me, as well as the rest of the post that it’s from; except substitute Old Order Mennonite for Amish (though I do also know a few Amish); and I was told that the retention rate is closer to 90%, though a) I don’t know whether that’s accurate and b) I don’t know whether the person who told me that was including people who shift to more liberal Mennonite sects but remain Mennonite.
And I have met Old Order Mennonites who spoke no English – but they were all small children not old enough to go to school. I’ve never met an adult Mennonite, or an older child for that matter, who didn’t have perfectly good English, both spoken and written.
I think it is reasonable for society at large to demand that children get enough education to make a free choice as adults whether to remain in (or join) an insular (or other) group.
As @Broomstick points out, enough education that with a reasonable degree of effort and whatever assistance is available in the area one can get a GED and, if desired, go on from there, will do. For that matter, there are plenty of people who went to standard secular public schools who then need assistance to get a GED.
It also requires a great deal of learning – about subsistence farming.
I’m surprised by some things in the article. But, not the corporal punishment. A Jewish painter had a series of paintings on display in ( I think it was) Temple Beth Sinai. Most were joyful. One was a teacher at a Jewish school whacking the soles of the feet of a student- with the preserved penis of a kosher bull. Students were required to say a certain prayer (I forget which one) during the punishment. If they screwed up or lost their place, the whacking started from the beginning.
The wonderful book Born To Kvetch also has a chapter on Yiddish words for corporal punishment.
Don’t they sell diamonds in the Diamond District in New York? That’s definitely a business that does business with outsiders.
I’ve got some Orthodox Jews on my mom’s side of the family in New York, but no Hasidic Jews to my knowledge. They are outliers in the family, most of their relatives fully assimilated several generations ago. These people are very, very strict about their religion, to the point of not even going into a restaurant that’s not officially certified as Kosher, but they have normal jobs and wear no identifying clothing other than the men always wearing hats. (By the way, there is NO rule that the hat has to be a yamakah. It can be any kind of hat. Most people don’t know this!)
Again, Orthodox is not the same as Hasidic. I taught at an ultra-Orthodox yeshiva that had religious and secular instruction. Many of my 12th graders went on to college. This isn’t to say that there weren’t conflicts over the curriculum, but I taught a fine SAT Verbal prep if I do say so myself.
^ This is why I suspect there is a fantasy element at play about the shetls. Back in the bad old days when those were an actual thing the majority of inhabitants were either farmers - with all the long hours and manual labor that entails - or small tradesmen like butchers, smiths, cobblers, tailors, sheitel macher,etc. Maybe the village rabbi could spend all day at study, but for most men showing up for daily prayers and Saturday was all the time that could be spared for “study” (Women were not, and still are not, required to hold to structured prayer at the synagogue, they can pray on the go, so to speak, wherever they are, on a much looser schedule). The fantasy of all men being torah scholars is not tenable in a self-supporting community, there’s just too much “real work” to do.
No. (with caveats)
First, like the Amish, “Hasidic Jews” along with “Ultra Orthodox Jews” are not a monolith, they’re a collection of loosely related small groups. Some are more strict than others. The Hasdic Satmar community, for example, is very cult-like and discourage anything like a secular education. The Chabad are also Ultra-Orthodox and have some cult-like features but they are NOT insular, the go out into the world and interact with it (they’re Jewish missionaries in a sense, but proselytize other Jews, not gentiles). We have a family in our area who stand out in a crowd (particularly the men and boys) but they all speak perfect English as well as Yiddish and presumably Hebrew, their children can read and write and are as well educated as the average public school student in our area (admittedly, a bar lower than it should be).
Standing side by side an outsider might not be able to tell the difference between Satmar and Chabad, not the least because they dress and wear their hair in a similar manner, but they are significantly divergent. In fact, a few decades ago there were some street battles (mostly fisticuffs) between Satmar and Chabad in New York City.
OK, now that we’re all clear that while Ultra-Orthodox Jews might look a lot alike they are not all alike.
There are Orthodox Jews in the diamond district, some of them very strict in their observances. Their roots are in Belgium, particularly Antwerp, and not the shetls of Eastern Europe. Are they related? Sure. All Jews are related to one degree or another. While some of them still are very observant Orthodox, and some might have Hasidic leanings (or even have joined such a group) others are less so, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a sprinkling of now secular folks in the mix. They’re united by a love of diamonds and a common trade, not membership in a common sect of Judaism.
Your relatives are strict observance Orthodox, they are not Hasidic. Also very likely the married women are all wearing wigs, not that you’d notice that.
My Jewish relatives are like yours - very observant, but you can’t really pick them out of a crowd by their dress and/or hairstyle. Those folks tend to value education and don’t have a problem with people having professional/white collar jobs.
Orthodox is not the same as Hasidic.
Right. Spending all day studying was a mark of wealth and prestige. As Tevya sings:
If I were rich, I’d have the time that I lack to sit in the synagogue and pray
And maybe have a seat by the Eastern wall
And I’d discuss the holy books with the learned men, several hours every day
And that would be the sweetest thing of all
The N.Y. Board of Regents voted Tuesday to approve new rules that are supposed to “interpret” and “enforce” state law ensuring that private schools provide substantially the same level of education as public ones. This has been in the works for a long time, and undoubtedly the N.Y. Times story appeared when it did to provide a kick in the pants to the Regents.
'It remains to be seen how effective the new regulations — which offer private schools several “pathways” to prove they’re complying with state law — will be in cracking down on problematic schools."
“Schools can demonstrate they’re in compliance with state law by getting approval from an independent accreditor or showing adequate progress on state-sanctioned standardized exams, among other options.”
“If they can’t meet any of those requirements, schools can submit to a review from the local school district, like the one led by the city Education Department that found 26 of 28 yeshivas under investigation weren’t meeting standards.”
“Enforcement of the law will still lie heavily with local school districts.”
“Nathaniel Styer, a spokesman for the city Education Department, said, “We believe these regulations put an undue burden on our public school system,” but added “we will faithfully implement all NYSED regulations.””
Given that there already was state law mandating standards in private education, the obvious reluctance of public school authorities to provide oversight, and likely resistance by the Hasidim, I wouldn’t expect radical change to take place any time soon.
The fact that some cultures do not focus on wealth as we do does not make them wrong, or us right.
Okay? I’m not sure I implied either of those things.
Forgive me. I thought you were concerned that some people spend their lives studying religious texts rather than supporting themselves in a more conventional way.
Various state governments spend lots of money funding people who do just that. We call them professors, and so long as they’re publishing the results of their studies they get their paycheck. I have no particular issue with it as a concept.
I do think the Hasidim are clinging to a practice primarily valuable in a society which strictly limits the economic, social, and educational mobility of Jewish people. In those places and times, a single-minded focus on religious study can act as a kind of bulwark to preserve skillsets which can later be applied to other endeavors. I see it as a kind of survival trait, but one not at all necessary in the heart of one of the most cosmopolitan cities on the planet.
It is merely my opinion, but even in the context of religious studies there could be a lot more study of modern advances in theology, rhetoric, philosophy, not to mention language study, law, classics, etc.
The Yeshiva’s are interested only in Jewish religious studies. They do teach Hebrew, Aramaic and possibly ancient Greek (for OTTOMH the Septaguint). They do teach law- Jewish law. Other than that, they have no interest in expanding the scope of their courses.
No doubt.
Or religious majorities, for that matter.
It’s the corporal punishment that really makes the school shitty.
I see these schools as a Yiddish version of a madrassa in Pakistan. They teach by rote, and the only subject is religion. They should not receive public funding as they are now if they do not teach the subjects necessary in public schools. I’m not even talking about Art or Shop class. Certainly, the funders need to verify that a curriculum covers at least some of the things necessary to function once they graduate. Computer literacy, English literacy. How to apply for a job. They could use lessons from the Torah to teach English. I feel so bad for those who are stuck in this system.
Can I ask a related question? OP, if you think it’s too off-topic, just let me know.
What is the point of this study? Are they uncovering new religious discoveries? They can’t all be rabbis when they grow up – what do they do with the knowledge? It just seems like you can only memorize something for so long.
I think that is a very good comparison.