Over a couple years ago President Bush agreed to sell Taiwan a defense package which included advanced ground-based anti-missile defense systems, destroyers and eight diesel submarines. The subs are turning out to be quite a problem because they had to be built and the USA has not built one in over 50 years and no longer has the technology. For two years they have been looking for a builder but due to Chinese pressure, France, Germany, Netherlands and Israel have turned down the contract to build the 8 subs.
Now, as a “reward” for supporting the Iraqi invasion, the contract is being offered to Spain in terms of an offer it cannot refuse. (With friends like that Spain needs no enemies)
Handled the hot potato, the Spanish minister of foreign affairs, Palacio, has travelled to Beijing to see what she could do but it seems quite obvious China was not going to agree when other, more powerful countries had been rejected. Palacio could only declare that “a decision has not been made yet”.
So now Spain is between a rock and a hard place. It is going to have to piss off either the USA or China and it cannot afford to do any of the two. We shall have to wait and see how this plays out. And if Spain refuses I am sure some other country is next in line and already considering how to handle the hot potato.
Taiwan is already pissed off because of the delay and, even if construction started tomorrow maybe they could not be delivered until 2014 and they fear that may be too late at the rate China is rearming. The whole thing looks like quite a messy thing.
I do not understand why Taiwan cannot build them if the technology is so low tech. They’re building all the computers in the entire world wide world, for crying out loud.
So I would like those who have better knowledge about the issues involved (diesel submarines, arms, China VS. Taiwan, US role etc) to add whatever relevant information they may have and to discuss the prospects and implications.
Just to pick up on point there is nothing low tech about modern diesel submarines, they are very quiet and efficient, and apart from the propulsion still need the full gamut of sensors, electronics and weapons systems that a nuclear submarine does.
Other candidates with a capability for manufacture are Sweden and Australia although I doubt either would be thrilled at the ‘offer’
It seems the USA intitially wanted Germany to build them as they have a hydrogen-tech motor that allows subs to stay under water for much longer periods of time than diesels and is quieter.
I just don’t quite get the deal. Taiwan has already been making payments to the USA for something the USA cannot deliver. . . Why doesn’t Taiwan build them or buy them directly from whoever can build them?
It’s kind of funny. The USA has offered to let Spanish oil companies bid on Iraqi oil. . . except that it is a type of oil the Spanish companies are not equipped to refine while the American competitors are. I just get a chuckle seeing the ridicule of the Spanish government who thought they were going to be rewarded by supporting their American “friend”.
Another “reward” is that Spain has been invited to be part of the occupying force in Iraq and there is quite a bit of internal opposition knowing that any day Spanish soldiers are going to become entangled in the guerrilla war. There is so little support in Spain for the army and this operation that they have had to resort to recruiting in latin American countries, mainly El Salvador, peru and Ecuador. So, in reality, it is becoming a mercenary force under Spanish command.
But anyway, these things are beside the point of this thread.
Re just buying I expect its for the same reason no-one wants to build the submarines for them, they are something of a pariah due to the real risk of Chinese hostility to the sale.
As for just building them I doubt they have the capacity on their own. There arent many nations that have the capability to manufacture modern submarines, and even fewer that can design them. To use Australia as an example we can manufacture them but we cant design one so we built to a European design. This of course meant we received considerable assistance, technical advice etc from our partners. We also shopped around for weaponry and the main torpedo chosen ended up being an american model. Point being they are unlikely to be in a position to just go it alone, they will need foreign co-operation and if that co-operation isnt forthcoming due to Chinese antagonism then they are SOL.
Hmmm, this gets complicated. You mean the USA is the only one who can design and integrate the whole thing but lacks capacity to build the hulls, maybe?
In other words, Some country would be building the hulls and motors but it would have to be designed and integrated by the USA and the USA would add a lot of high tech systems?
I still don’t understand why the USA cannot build them then. Surely there are shipbuilders who can do it?
The Netherlands are quite capable of designing and building subs. They are not doing it for the same reasons the US is not doing it.
Nobody wants to piss off the Chinese.
Remember who is preferred trading partner #1? Same with all the other nations. It’s not that they are afraid of China, it’s just that a lot of contracts will go down the toilet.
What about Britain? It seems to me that they have some diesel submarines still kicking around. They sold a half dozen or so to Canada a few years ago. And they don’t seem to mind taking sides with the Americans.
Uh, maybe not. We’re still banging out dents and bailing water.
I think there’s only 1 sub builder in the US and, as the US sub fleet is exclusively nuclear, I doubt they have experience building diesel boats.
Still why not set up a lend lease program with the French? The Americans pick them up as coastal training boats and send them to Taiwan? It’s transparent as all hell but then again its international politics.
No, the US government have already contracted for the sale and have pissed off China. The problem is they cannot find a US shipyard who can do the building because no diesel subs have been built in the USA in over 50 years so the US government is forced to find a foreign shipyard who is ready, willing and able.
It is telling that China already has such arm-twisting capacity, comparable to the US. Let’s see how Spain comes out of this one.
adam yax makes a good point. Why not the UK?
Also I believe South Korea has quite a shipbuilding industry but I guess they would be especially interested in not pissing the Chinese off.
This is probably similar to what the Taiwanese are looking for - a small, short-ranged yet state-of-the-art attack boat. Considering the fact that their main enemy is only a few miles away, I doubt they need anything more expensive.
I’m not sure but I think the UK has gone all nuclear. Canada did pick up some of the last diesel boats built (it shows). Not sure if there are any left.
I personally wonder why India isn’t considered, since India has an interest in keeping China contained and they do have the capability. As a nuclear armed and huge nation in their own right I think they would have less to fear from China than other more economically dependant and militarily weak nations.
Indeed, a lot of nations can do the integration thing quite well if they have the blueprints and the technical advisors at hand. And right now, politically the USA are the only ones in a position to make such a sale to Taiwan and to do post-delivery tech support for Taiwan. The US “made the sale” under the commitment that we’d later figure how to actually deliver the goods (think Bill Gates selling an OS he did not yet own to IBM).
As to why not buld them ourselves, we quit designing and building non-nuke boats over 40 years ago (and the smaller, non-ocean cruising subs favored by most of the modern world, since the start of WW2). However, Ingalls Shipbuilding (and Lockheed) have considered working with the Dutch in the possible assembly of Dutch-designed boats for export sales – without much success, because you get into a Catch-22: the yards won’t tool up w/o firm orders, and navies w/o bottomless moneybags tend to not order vaporware vessels. So a US yard could indeed license-build a Dutch design, but are not likely to unless our government gives them a big fat upfront wad and a guarantee that they won’t lose their shirts. Notice from Alessan’s link, that Ingalls also tried and failed to participate in supplying the Israeli subs, precisely with up-front US funding. So apparently it ain’t that easy! ( BTW: An Israeli “U-boot”. That’s just sweet ;j )