The classic team has two guards (point and shooting), two forwards (small and forward), and a center. The distinctions are mostly based on size and play style.
The point guard is generally the smallest and quickest player on the floor, with an emphasis on ball handling and passing - he brings the ball up, calls any designed plays, and starts the offense. He may shoot from time to time, but he’s intended to assist the others more than scoring on his own.
The shooting guard is another small and quick player, but with more ability for shooting, especially near the three point line. He also may come free on screens or picks for layups.
The small forward is the middle man of the team. He may be able to shoot three pointers or other long jumpers, but he has a bit more size and ability to play closer to the basket.
On offense, your power forward and center tend to play very similarly. They’re the big men down low, running screens for the smaller guys and bodying the ball down in the paint. The biggest difference will come on defense - the center is the rim defender, getting in the way whenever someone tries to drive and swatting the ball into the cheap seats if they’re arrogant enough to try a shot.
However, that’s all theory for high school level basketball. The NBA is a whole new game, with teams letting 7 footers bring the ball up the floor while the little guy jacks up shots from the halfcourt line and the 6’7" dude is the one protecting the basket.
First and foremost: we need to dispense with the idea that LeBron James has somehow played alongside better players than Jordan did. Michael Jordan played his entire career with Scottie Pippen, an inner circle Hall of Famer and maybe the best one-on-one defensive player that ever played. Pippen was a better player than Dywane Wade. For his pre-baseball run, he also had Horace Grant, who was a 10+ win share player three times in Chicago (by comparison, Chris Bosh managed that only once in Miami, and once in Toronto). Then, of course, he came back from baseball to a team with the greatest non-Malone rebounder in modern basketball history.
On the other hand, when LeBron dragged the 06-07 Cavs to the finals, his wingmen were guys like Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Anderson Varejao. Put it this way: the fifth best player on that 95-96 Bulls team was probably Steve Kerr, and he’d have been LeBron’s best teammate on the 06-07 Cavs!
So, yeah, LeBron had to go to Miami to find his Pippen and his Horace Grant, and he couldn’t win a championship without them. But Jordan would not have won a championship without Pippen and Grant/Rodman (and I’m old enough to remember when people called Michael a choker and a selfish player who couldn’t lift a team to victory). And Jordan was fortunate enough to play alongside Pippen for all of Pippen’s prime, whereas James got Wade only for the back nine of his career.
None of which is a knock on Jordan, by the way. I still think Jordan is the greatest player of all time. But they neither of them did it alone, and I’d argue that James actually had way less help than Michael did for most of his career.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that Jordan “did it alone”, but he also didn’t chase championships by abandoning his team. Twice. And maybe a third time this summer when LeBron is a free agent. The Lakers are common rumored destination, or perhaps Houston.
LeBron also chased Kyrie Irving away from Cleveland. He had another “Pippen” with the Cavs, but for some reason Kyrie just could not play with LeBron anymore. I don’t recall anyone ever demanding a trade away from the Bulls because Jordan was too difficult to play with.
LeBron is a great player, but there is one G.O.A.T. and he ain’t it. I also think Jordan would have won if there could be a matchup between them one on one both at their primes. His competitiveness, will to win, and mental toughness would totally overmatch James.
I could maybe agree for the beginning of James’ career with Cleveland, but once he went to Miami, that doesn’t hold. They had the big three, but also brought in the great Ray Allen, and other top role players that wanted to chase rings with LeBron. That was a super-team in every meaning of the word.
Then once he came back to Cleveland he had a number one pick in Irving, then started playing defacto GM and got them to trade top pick Andrew Wiggins for Kevin Love, creating a new big three, and pretty much got them to bring in all of his chosen guys. They blew up the team this year at the trade deadline because they stank, but who do you think got them to sign Dwanye Wade and Derrick Rose. You can’t give him points for not having a better team when he was the one that created the team by making the Cavs bring in all of his guys. Jordan never had that kind of say. The Bulls built the team around him and he took them to 6 straight championships (not counting when he retired for a year and a half). I could even argue that Scottie was greater for playing alongside the greatest player of all time. I love Scottie, but it isn’t like he had a great deal of playoff success without MJ next to him.
Oh, Lord! Back then, NBA defense was much tougher and much more physical. Hand checking was allowed and, if you went down the lane, you did so at your peril.
Can you imagine the self-proclaimed “King” going against Bill Laimbeer and the Detroit Piston defense?! Oh, the drama! LoL
That’s because he didn’t have to. Jerry Krause got him the top-quality teammates he needed to win in Chicago. If the Bulls had ended up with, say, Dennis Hopson and Joe Wolf in 1987 rather than Pippen and Grant, then Jordan either:
Leaves Chicago for a better team; or
Never wins a championship.
Dinging James for wanting to have the kind of teammates that were handed to MJ on a silver platter seems a bit unfair… and dinging James for Kyrie Irving seems totally unfair. Jordan was fortunate to have a second banana who ultimately was OK with being a second banana. Kyrie left Cleveland because he was fundamentally unwilling to do what Pippen did for a decade in Chicago - subsume his own ego to a superior player. Not a knock against Irving, but not one against LeBron, either.
Again, I don’t want to be in the position of arguing against MJ. He’s number one. But I think the criticism of LeBron James has been way overstated, and it’s distracting everyone from appreciating and enjoying the fact that we are right now watching the second-best basketball player of all time.
I think Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, and Larry Bird may have a bit of a quibble with that last sentence.
LeBron came to Kyrie’s team and insisted that he be the alpha. He made them fire the coach (who was just hired, was well respected and had the Cavs in first place at the time). He chased Kyrie away because he couldn’t share the spotlight. He played defacto GM and defacto coach. I’m not surprised Kyrie wanted to go somewhere else to get away from LeBron’s neutron star massive ego.
You also discount that the players the Bulls had were better for playing with MJ. He made his teammates better. What success did Horace Grant have after he left the Bulls? What playoff success did Scottie have without MJ next to him? I love these guys, but lets not compare them with LeBron joining Wade and Bosh who where the stars of their teams.
Again, I’m not saying that James isn’t a great player, but I think recency bias makes people consider him greater than his actual accomplishments warrant. If he was truly the second greatest player of all time what the hell happened when he was absent for the entire finals series against the Mavericks? He was a non factor. None of the players I listed above would have ever disappeared like that on that stage.
Just to be clear, I also think that James has done a lot of good off the court, and I’m not a hater. I have a lot of respect for him for many reasons. He’s an all time great for sure, I just think people generally tend to overrank current players simply because they are playing now.
All of these guys were great players, phenomenal players, inner circle players, and LeBron James is (in my opinion, disclaimer disclaimer etc etc) hilariously better than Bird ever was, better than Wilt (I mean, come on, Wilt did his damage mostly against 6’8" white guys) by a fair margin, and edges out Magic and Kareem, who are third and fourth in some order. LeBron is basically just Magic Evolved, with much, much worse teammates.
Jordan famously had an immense ego and insisted on being the Alpha, as well. He was famously abusive to his teammates and difficult to play with. If Kyrie had been a Bull in 1992 he’d have left; MJ was, again, fortunate that Pippen was ultimately willing to sacrifice his own ego.
Again, Scottie Pippen was a better player, with or without MJ, then Dywane Wade, and Grant was at least the equal of Chris Bosh. I mean, look: the year after Michael Jordan went to play basketball, the Bulls behind Pippen and Grant won 55 games. The year after LeBron James went to Miami, the Cavaliers lost 63 games.
I mean,
[ul]
[li]Wilt averaged 11.1 ppg in his first Finals series with the Lakers;[/li][li]Magic shot .431 from the field and saw a turnover rate of 22% against the Bulls in 90-91; I watched that series, and he got cooked on defense, too;[/li][li]Bird shot .449 from the field and .333 from long range while seeing every peripheral statistic decline when the Celtics got beaten up by the Lakers in 1985;[/li][li]and Kareem… was… basically perfect, yeah, Kareem was never a non-factor until he was about two thousand years old.[/li][/ul]
Again, I agree that LeBron is a great player. I’ve maintained that throughout this thread. Jordan is on a different level though. Untouchable. The number two player of all time cannot lose in the finals 5 times though. And 3 of those finals losses were with super teams that he built himself, so there’s no excuse for that. He either failed as a player or failed as a GM or both. You can’t take all of that power and then still say its not your fault if you don’t succeed.
And this refrain about how awful LeBron’s teammates have been? Just not true, except for the beginning of his career with Cleveland. Once he left for Miami, he hand picked his team and went from one superteam to another.
On that note, if LeBron didn’t play in a ridiculously weak Eastern Conference, he only makes the Finals three times, and nobody is comparing him to Kobe, let alone The Greatest. In the 19 seasons post-Jordan, the Eastern Conference has won the Finals a whopping SIX times, and only forced a Game 7 twice. The Lakers and Spurs have five each over that time period.
Which is why I’m 90% certain Lebron is never going to LA. The only way for him to beat the Warriors in a seven game series is a knock-down, drag-out fight, and there’s no way he can will himself through another series against a fresher Celtics or Rockets team.
[LIST]
[li] Will also pulled down 25 rebounds a game during that Finals. If he doesn’t screw up his knee in Game 7, the Lakers would have yet another banner hanging in the arena,[/li][li] And Magic was guarded by someone you admit to being possibly the greatest defender in NBA history, and still averaged almost a triple-double for the series.[/li][li] Bird averaged 24/10/5 for the Finals after back-to-back 7 game series leading up to it, and still managed to push a fresh Lakers team featuring Magic and Kareem to six games. They were beaten up by the Bucks and Pistons and a cocaine overdose. The Lakers just rolled in to clean up the mess.[/li]
Outside of Bill Russell in '69, has anyone ever doubted whether any of those four would pass away the game winner? Maybe Magic, because that was his game - hang 20 points on you, then toss more assists than the average NBA team because you were afraid of his scoring.
Bill Russell won 11 titles in 13 years, so if rings! is the end all be all of the GOAT debate, he beats Jordan handily. It’s a team game. Shit, Robert Horry is 7-0 in the Finals, he must be better than Jordan.
It is a team game, but of the major team sports, it is the one where one player can make the most difference.
Also, rings were one reason given for why Jordan tops LeBron on the all time list, but certainly not the only reason. I don’t recall anyone claiming rings were the “end all be all” of the GOAT debate. In my first post to this thread I listed 4 reasons Jordan is greater than LeBron, and my point about the rings was the percentage of titles vs. finals appearances, not just the number of rings, so not sure who proposed the idea that # of rings is the only thing that matters.
Everyone will have their opinion on who is the GOAT, and there’s never going to be a “correct” answer declared, so it all really comes down to personal opinion.
Once it’s acknowledged that basketball is a team game, then stats like 3-5 vs. 6-0 become much less meaningful. It’s an absurd argument either way, though, because it advances the idea that, had the Bulls beaten the Pistons in '89 or '90, but lost in the Finals, it would make Jordan’s resume less impressive. Somehow, it becomes better to lose in the Conference Finals than in the Finals.
Now, LeBron’s career isn’t over yet, so a full comparison will have to wait. In the meantime, though, a few factors that should be weighed in Lebron’s favor:
Lebron did not abruptly retire in his prime. People love to talk about Jordan’s competitiveness as evidence of greatness, but how competitive can you be if you quit the game like he did?
Lebron is a more versatile player, and thus eclipses Jordan’s greatness in a number of areas. No, he isn’t Jordan’s equal as a scorer, but he’s the better passer, for instance, and can play more positions. Both were superlative defenders at their peaks.
LeBron dragging the '06-07 Cavs to the Finals is more impressive (to me) than any of Jordan’s titles.
Lebron’s '15-'16 Cavs beating the 73-win Warriors is more impressive (to me) than any of Jordan’s titles.
To me, Jordan is a fantastic player, who was lucky enough to peak during an era where the greats of the '80s were fading, and the league was entering a talent lull. This allowed the Bulls to dominate, which magnified Jordan’s greatness.
Who, ultimately, is better? I don’t know. Lebron has a lot of seasons left, so I’m not ready to make the call.
There are conspiracy theories that he didn’t necessarily quit, but who can say. In his sudden retirement, it was certainly his competitiveness that lead him to play (minor league) MLB. And when he returned to basketball, he was still MJ “Greatest GOAT of all time”.
Where was LeBron in the Heat’s finals loss to Dallas? He was absent for that series. Losing a finals is one thing. Losing because your supposed GOAT level player disappears? That’s something else. Although somehow when LeBron loses it’s always because his teammates weren’t good enough. Even when he hand picked those teammates.
Dude, his Dad was murdered. Low blow. I mean people can have passionate feelings about these sports debates, but to ding a guy because he had to process the murder if his Father seems a bit unnecessary.
Just about all players are more versatile now than they were in the 80’s and 90’s, that’s because the game is different now. Centers are shooting three pointers. Point guards can be 6’10". The position-less player is becoming the norm. Using that to ding players that played back when positions were more defined is just begging the question. Jordan was a shooting guard, and nobody has ever played that position better. He also won defensive player of the year in 87-88, as well as being NBA All Defensive First Team 9 times. Only 5 times for LeBron, and he has never won defensive player of the year.
Subjective, hard to argue against your feelings. However, I’ll go with the flu game. LeBron couldn’t handle playing in San Antonio because the AC wasn’t set low enough for him and had to be carried off of the court :rolleyes:
Also subjective. You being impressed isn’t convincing to me. You can’t really think that this kind of assertion is going to make me rethink things do you?
Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Shaquille O’Neal, Isiah Thomas, Dominique Wilkins, Clyde Drexler, Gary Payton, Penny Hardaway, Reggie Miller, Alonzo Mourning, Jason Kidd, Shawn Kemp. Yeah real dearth of talent in those years. Bunch of scrubs amiright?
A lot of seasons left? He’s 33, and he’s in his 15th season. I wouldn’t count those chickens before they hatch. He’s not retiring after this season, but I wouldn’t be suprised if he only goes another 2 or 3 years, and he will start being less effective as he ages. He’ll need another super team to join if he has any hopes of more titles at this point.