I strenuously disagree that Lebron is a more skilled basketball player than Jordan. Jordan was definitely more purely-skilled as a basketball player than James but James is a physical freak of nature. I have never seen the combination of size, strength, speed, agility and pure athleticism in any athlete of any sport (not that there aren’t, Im just not aware of them).
I think Lebron could excel at a high level at many different sports. The only sport Jordan could dominate was basketball (and he even tried baseball. He tried, we’ll leave it at that haha).
I’d probably say Jordan was the more effective player than LeBron due mostly to his insane competitiveness. However, Jordan played in a weaker NBA and he never beat a “superteam” like Golden State (which isn’t his fault).
I know this: if I was an NBA player I would much rather play with LBJ than MJ.
Possibly( to 2 or 3 years more of career ) and definitely( to getting less effective as he ages ). But what really impresses me is how little he has regressed at 33, despite playing the very heavy load he has for these last several years. He may or may not be better Jordan( if that comparison can really mean anything ), but Ambivalid has a point about his nearly unique combination of size, strength and athleticism. He is kinda the Secretariat of basketball - an unbelievable mutant machine. PLUS the tremendous skill and BB IQ.
LeBron isn’t exactly immortal and I expect cracks to start showing soon. But if he were content coming off the bench as a limited minutes backup( I kinda doubt he would be ), I could see him still being effective playing past 40.
I threw Harden in because his last year reminded me a lot of Magic, and I wanted to see how the careers compared. He’s not there yet, and may never get there.
Wilt’s boards and Magic’s assists are just insane. And that with looking at Wilt’s per 36 instead of total per game (45.8 minutes per game average for his career!), which screws him compared to the others, who are around 36-38 or so.
WS ranks them: Jordan, Wilt, then a gap to LeBron, then a gap to Magic and Kareem (we’ll table Harden for a few more years in this offense). Which is about where I’d rank them off the top of my head. 'Bron looks better by comparison than I’d have thought.
Wilt wouldn’t be recognizable as the dominating athlete he was if he were playing in today’s NBA. Of course that’s just my opinion but I liken it to Lebron playing ball in HS. He’s a man playing against boys (literally and literally).
IYO, would Wilt have comparable stats if he were playing in the modern era of the NBA (I’m using the term “modern” arbitrarily as from the 90’s to today?)
“Weaker”? You mean back when the NBA resembled hockey more than the current NBA? If LeBron had to continually face Laimbeer and constantly get literally beaten down on every drive to the basket, I do not think he’d have the same success scoring as Jordan. MJ found a way “around” those guys, and even when he got hammered, his circus layups still went in.
Let’s not forget Danny ‘Crybaby’ Ainge. He’d maul people and then scream if he was touched on offense, or if he got called for it. He and Laimbeer were my true love-to-hates.
Rambis was in a similar mode, but I can’t help loving him. (Yep, I’m a Laker fan.) He was the Enforcer. I remember him throwing somebody three rows deep from the floor one time, but I can’t remember who it was.
Oh, yeah. MJ, hands down. I remember those Lakers-Bulls series, and praying Jordan wouldn’t get the ball in the last seconds…good luck with that.
“Jordan played in a weaker NBA” is not proven by claiming the Eastern Conference was weak when Jordan left.
While I agree that the 96-98 championships were won in a “weaker” NBA than the 91-93 champs, that 1988-1992 era may be the most competitive the league has ever been.
I’m going to go with Jordan. Disregarding the on-court stuff (already covered in this thread), Jordan has a vastly more influential off-court presence, effectively creating the template of the modern professional athlete*: always professional, drug-free, aware of their fame and the uses of it, leveraging their basketball fame and earnings far beyond what was expected of earlier athletes to become true financial powers in their own right.
LeBron has a good Twitter game, but people actually looked forward to, and quoted, Michael Jordan commercials: “Over the rafters, off the bench, nothing but net…”… “like Mike. If I could be like Mike.”
Without Jordan, LeBron likely wouldn’t be having conferences with Warren Buffett and may be wondering if he could retire with a car dealership. Without Jordan, Kobe might be looking to coach somewhere and not working on becoming a billionaire by the age of 50. Now that still may have happened w/o Mike… but I doubt it.
*Along with the other MJ, Magic.
(Weird that the three of the biggest African American stars of the 80s had the same initials.)
He was putting up a 18-7-7, and passing to Dwyane Wade a lot, because Wade had a better matchup than he did. Dallas had Shawn Marion and DeShawn Stevenson to throw at Lebron. Lebron retooled his game accordingly, adding an improved three-point shot and post-up game, so as to deal with the long, athletic Stevenson types who could defend his drives.
Eh. I’m assessing them as basketball players, and nothing more. I don’t go in for the armchair psychology and mythmaking, except to debunk it. When assessing them as basketball players, Jordan’s missing seasons hurts his case.
Well, then you need to decide whether you want to evaluate guys in the context of their eras, or not. You criticized Lebron for not having to deal with handchecks, for having floor-spacing three point shooters, for joining superteams, and changing teams in free agency. Those are parts of LeBron’s era. If that’s fair game for criticism, so is Jordan’s relative lack of versatility.
Um, cramps are a real thing. Is Jordan a pussy because he broke his foot? Lebron clearly has tougher, manlier feet.
You just said “it all really comes down to personal opinion.” We can swap PER numbers and win shares, or just hash it out with subjective takes. You’re clearly chosen, and advocate for, the latter approach, but now subjective takes are out of bounds? C’mon, man.
Relative to today, yes. It was an era of expansion teams, too-much-too-soon guys like Chris Webber, and early flameouts like Shawn Kemp and Grant Hill. The talent level today is much higher.
Also, Thomas was 30 when Jordan started winning titles. He goes under the category of “greats of the '80s who were fading”.
Tom Brady just shattered Super Bowl records at age 40. Lebron is a better athlete, and is just as obsessive about taking care of his body. Believe me, barring a catastrophic injury, he won’t be done in 2-3 years.
You know who else needs a super team to join if they have any hopes of a title? Every single player in the NBA. Welcome to 2018.
Look you prefer LeBron, I prefer Jordan. Nothing said in this thread is going to change your or my mind.
You put LeBron back in Jordan’s era and he would get his ass kicked all over the court. He never had to play against that type of defense.
You put Michael Jordan in todays NBA and he’d score 35 a night since nobody could check him like they used to. He’d be dunking all over these stretch 4 three point shooting power forwards, if they were even in the paint in the first place. He’d also be able to switch up and play small forward or point guard in these modern NBA offenses where point guards typically hold the ball more and drive to the paint more. He’d also be difficult to defend with the “Jordan rules” because nowadays almost everyone can shoot threes, so double teaming him would not be wise, and nobody could ever stop MJ one on one for an entire game. He defended all three positions in his day. He and Scottie would take whoever the best two offensive players on the other team were and shut them down while dropping 30+ points on the other end. He’d thrive if he played right now, whereas, in my opinion LeBron would not know how to deal with getting beat up every night the way those teams played defense back then, before it was illegal.
I’m going to guess that you’d disagree with this assessment, and that’s ok. That’s what makes these debates so lively, we each have our own answer.
By the way I understand that cramps are a real thing, I also understand every single other player on both teams that night was just fine and had zero issues with the temperature in the arena. It was very odd that it affected him so much more than anyone else. Jordan won a finals game with the flu. He was deathly sick and still dominated the game. And I still think its unfair to criticize Jordan because his Dad was murdered. But your mileage may vary on that I guess.
No, like I said, I think the jury’s still out. But I feel obligated to make a case for Lebron, since the Jordan side is better represented in the thread. My favorite player ever is Tim Duncan, and I think you can make a case for him being greater than Jordan or Lebron.
C’mon now. Lebron is 6’ 8" and 250 pounds of muscle, and moves far faster and with more grace than anybody that big has any right to. He’s an elite playmaker, a fine outside shooter, and one of the best post players in the league. Oh, and inhumanly efficient. He’s playing against guys now who are bigger, faster, and more athletic than the vast majority of the '80s guys. He never gets hurt. Hand checks and getting knocked down more aren’t going to stop him. And, with the zone defense rules in place, he gets to go iso and beat his man whenever he wants.
He’d dominate the '80s. Who could stop him? When he’s blowing by the forward you have guarding him, the fact that your center gets to foul him extra hard without being ejected doesn’t matter, at all. I’d be more concerned about what happens when your Laimbeer or Rambis slow-white-enforcer type gets run over by the Lebron runaway freight train.
Certainly, Jordan would be great if he played now. If he stepped out of a time machine, he’d be expected to improve his 3 point shooting, and he’d have to learn today’s more complicated offenses, but he’d be an incredible, All-NBA, MVP-level talent. If he were born in 1993 instead of 1963, and grew up in today’s game, even more so. There’s no era of basketball yet played where Jordan, or Lebron, aren’t MVPs.
From what I understand (from watching UK games, we always seem to have an inordinate amount of guys with cramping issues), cramps are associated with not being sufficiently hydrated. Maybe he was too hyped up and didn’t drink enough, maybe he was expending far more energy than everyone else in the game. I dunno. I do know that Lebron played like a golden god in that series, 28-8-4-2 on 57% shooting and 52% from 3, while being guarded by Kawhi Leonard.
I just question the Jordan’s-competitiveness-made-him-great stuff. I think it’s his amazing play that made him great, not the after-the-fact pop-psychology mythmaking. His retirement pokes a hole in that mythology, is all.
Oh please. You can like Jordan more than LeBron all you like, hell I do too, but this kind of hyperbole is just plain stupid. LeBron is an amazing athlete and a top 5 player of all time. You can’t pretend that he’s simply a product of this era, he’d be great in any era.
It’s not after the fact mythology. I watched almost every game in Jordan’s career starting at about the age of 10 in 1998. It was widely known then by everyone he played against, or played golf with, or played cards with, including his Grandma. Yes, he cheated at cards against his own Grandma. That’s how much he needed to win at everything. Needed, not wanted. Even his hall of fame acceptance speech was mostly sticking it to his foils over the years. If you have a must win basketball game, down to the final posession, and you’re down by 1, and you can give the ball to any player from any era to take that last shot, are you seriously saying that you’d give the ball to LeBron in that clutch moment over Jordan?
When the other side is arguing that Jordan was a product of his era, then I can certainly use the same tactics. LeBron never had to play in the era of constant physical defense. This is a fact. You can hand wave that fact away, but you have no way to prove that I’m wrong. LeBron takes dives like soccer players without even taking contact. I’m not saying he wouldn’t be a great player back then, of course he’d be great, but he’d have a lot of adjusting to do, and that flopping stuff would not fly in that era. The big guys back then would see that and say oh, do you want to really hit the floor, and elbow him in the face, or undercut him going to the hoop. Everything in this thread is an opinion. You’re certainly welcome to yours.
And that has nothing to do with anything, as far as I’m concerned. If Jordan was an even-tempered, humble guy like Tim Duncan, but still put up the same results on the court, does it make him a lesser player? Absolutely not. That’s the mythology of it, the idea that Jordan is great because he was so competitive/assholish, as opposed to being a great player who happened to be competitive/assholish.
You look at the all-time greats: Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Lebron, Jordan, and so on, and you see many different personality types.
I’m not a hero-ball guy. Teams and coaches win games, through skillful execution of a well-designed offense. The whole idea of giving the ball to your best guy to make something happen, of late-game offense as force of will instead of basketball, is outdated hokum. Even Jordan, the scoring assassin and lord of iso ball, understand that on some level, famously passing to Paxson and Kerr for game-winners in the Finals.
If it has to be one guy in particular taking the shot, I imagine that you’d want a guy with a super-high true shooting percentage. Jordan ranks #87 on that list, Lebron is #40. Looking at the list, the guy I want for that exact situation in a game in 2018 (guy I run the play for has to shoot it, no matter what), I’d take #10: Kevin Durant. Superb scorer, knows how to execute a play, and his freakish size lets him shoot over anybody uncontested.
