Unfortunately, my plans to create a time machine that sends basketball players back in time is still in the planning stages, so you really got me there with the “you can’t prove me wrong” zinger. Ouch.
And LeBron would adjust to the game that was being played, just as he has his entire career. You take a few flops, ignore his physical domination, and try to pretend he’s some kind of soft player when, for his entire career, he’s been both physically and mentally dominant. He’d be great in any era of NBA basketball.
Sure. Your opinion that Jordan is better than James is one I agree with. It’s well supported by evidence, it follows from the stats and eye tests, and, although it’s not indisputable, it certainly is convincing.
However, your opinion that James would somehow get “his ass kicked all over the court” is quite the opposite. It’s not based on evidence, it doesn’t follow from the stats or the eye test, and it is entirely unconvincing. It’s simply incredibly stupid. Not all opinions are equal.
I think I’ve made all of the arguments I need to make. Like I said we all have our opinions. When it comes to the best clutch player of all time, I’ll go along with these guys and stick with Jordan.
Note: I am not saying that the fact that I found others with the same opinion as me makes my opinion right. Just saying that my opinion is hardly controversial.
I think recency bias plays a part here. How old were you guys during the 80’s/90’s era? Did you ever watch Jordan play, or have you only seen highlight videos and stuff? I remember how much teams feared him, especially in clutch moments. Larry Bird once said “I think he’s God disguised as Michael Jordan” after dropping 63 on Boston in the playoffs in 1986 (not after the prime of Boston’s run, but in fact right in the middle of it). It’s not mythology if it actually happened, and it did, I remember it. If you want to give Durant the ball that’s fine, that’s your opinion, but I’ll stick with Mike.
I’m not talking about drawing a charge. I’m talking about flopping down to the floor when nobody ever touched you and acting like you were just assaulted. Like soccer players do.
Clutchness isn’t a real thing, though. Jordan was a great player, of course he was feared. Great players turn in great performances, some of which will be in “clutch” moments.
Durant, to this point in his career, is simply more likely to score points on a given possession than Jordan was. Durant’s true shooting % is higher, and so is his effective field goal %. Both are volume scorers, so it’s not a case of only dunking offense rebounds, like DeAndre Jordan with his gaudy percentages.
Both guys’ numbers are in the context of their team situations, but as there’s no way to separate that out, I assume your scenario includes the last-shot-taken having whatever teammates he would have had in reality.
That’s not to say Durant is a better player overall than MJ, but the numbers are what they are. Kevin Durant, right now, is a combination of scoring volume and efficiency that Jordan never matched during his career, and if you have one shot to take, the guy who’s more likely to score is the way to go.
And I’ll see your recency bias with the status-quo bias.
I guess there’s no way for either of us to convince the other. You had to be there. I was. I’ve seen both players’ entire careers. There’s no contest in my mind. I am not alone in that assessment. You see things differently. That’s cool. That’s what makes these debates fun, but also what makes them unwinnable.
He didn’t flop, he stayed on his feet. Yes he faked a foul, but he didn’t flail on the ground like he was just hit by a car. Which is especially ridiculous with how big and strong as LeBron is.
Saw this after my last reply. Agreed, it’s been fun, but it is what it is. Good debating with you.
And don’t sleep on Tim Duncan and his 5 titles, 2 MVPs, 3 Finals MVPs, 15 All-Star appearances, 15 time All-Defense, 15 time All-NBA, only guy to start his career with 13 straight times All-NBA and All-Defense, and making the playoffs every year for 19 straight years. Duncan was on his own level, as the hub of a winning organization, as a foundational building block, a cornerstone.
It doesn’t matter, though. It’s like citing how cool he looked with a shaved head.
He fakes a shot to the nose, to point of pretending to check to see if his nose is bleeding! He gets Cartwright ejected! Oh, but he stumbles away to the bench in fake disorientation instead of hitting the deck, so 80s/90s flops are totally different from today’s? C’mon!
We can meet in the middle on Jordan vs. Lebron/Durant/Duncan, but I won’t sit idly by while you minimize Bill Laimbeer’s flopping. It was called the “Laimbeer flop”, for Pete’s sake.
I didn’t look, but I’ll take your word for it. Doesn’t that mean that Jordan wasn’t all about winning, that he put looking cool at all times over drawing fouls? Just sayin’. Guys don’t flop for no reason, they do it for a competitive advantage.
Agree to disagree man. Sure Laimbeer flopped, but he wasn’t also angling to be considered the greatest player of all time. He was a role player, and his role was the asshole that pissed off the other team.
LeBron should be better than that. Sure it gives him an advantage to act like that, but if he’s truly the GOAT, shouldn’t that be enough of an advantage without all the histrionics?
I didn’t actually look, there may be clips of Jordan overselling a foul here and there, but LeBron is infamous for it. He made it a meme. He turned his own name into a punchline “Lebroning”.
Sure, but I only brought up Laimbeer in reference to the idea of flopping “not flying” during the Jordan era. Seems like it was already a thing.
It’s indicative of a different mindset, a generational difference. Steph Curry flops, Russell Westbrook flops, James Harden’s game is like 54% flops, and on and on. I’m not an NBA player (believe it or not), but from the outside, it appears to just be part of the game now, no different from a pull-up three or a pump fake: a move you can do to get an advantage. It sure doesn’t appear to be anything shameful to them, because they all do it.
ETA: And as players get faster and faster, it’ll just get worse and worse, until we can perfect the robot referee.
And I think that is a negative thing about today’s game. If I wanted to see guys flopping around like fish out of water faking injuries, I’d watch soccer. Doesn’t influence me to think that these modern players are “greater” than Jordan if that’s how they get a competitive advantage now. I’d prefer it was with just their talent for basketball.
Agreed, though I feel the same way about the hard-fouling bullyball days that ran up through the late '90s and turned games into unwatchable rockfights (Knicks 77, Heat 73. PJ Brown fighting Charlie Ward. Alonzo Mourning fighting Larry Johnson. New York 72, Miami 70. The NBA: it’s faaaaantastic!). I try not to let it affect my judgment of that era and its players. No era is perfect, after all.
True enough. But remember MJ thrived against that bullyball stuff. In fact you can kind of trace that kind of ball to the Pistons in the late 80s who started that kind of play specifically to stop Jordan, they called it “The Jordan Rules”, until he won in spite of that kind of stuff, which was when they refused to shake hands after the conference finals. So in a sense that was the NBA’s answer to Jordan, and he still dominated against it.
I guess until time travel is invented we will just never know for sure. But I’m riding with Mike
It was highly watchable as a Bulls fan though haha. It was all the other teams could figure out to do against him, and it still didn’t work. That is greatness.
Agreed on those Pistons teams. Classless sore losers, well except for Joe Dumars.
Duncan and LeBron are both in my top 5, along with probably Magic, Kareem, and Jordan as clear number 1. Bird is close, but not sure who he would edge out.
