Difficulty of NES games

From almost my first days on the Internet, I’ve heard a lot about how incredibly difficult NES games were, how the bar was set incredibly high, and (of course) how easy today’s gamers have it.

How many of you actually believe this? I owned an NES for many years, and in my experience, there was a huge gamut from super-easy to nearly impossible. I was a gawky, moody, picky high school kid when I first got my system. Believe me, if the games were nothing but monsters, I would’ve noticed. And remember, video games were still largely considered kids’ stuff at the time.

Because the NES was such a huge technological leap from anything that came before, a lot of companies were in unfamiliar territory, and many simply could not find the middle ground. Sometimes a game intented to be a decent challenge would have one or two unfortunate oversight that made it torturously difficult (checkpoints were one of the huge ones). Sometimes a game intended to be difficult just didn’t punish mistakes enough, or just didn’t have enough foes, or just gave the player too much power, etc., and it became ridiculously easy. And then you have numerous either-you-got-it-or-you-don’t titles like Contra.

Anyway, let’s discuss. I’ll start with some well-known titles.

Super Mario Bros. was the one that started it all, and fittingly, it’s pretty easy. What’s great about it is that there’s no such thing as a hopeless situation. You can be the small, weak, unpowered Mario at the the start of the final, massive castle, which has no powerups, and prevail (I’ve done this numerous times). Even the “new quest” (enemies sped up and Goombas turned into Buzzy Beetles) is only a little tougher.

Mike Tyson’s Punch-Out (gratuitous exclamation points) is all about patterns, reflexes, and knowing what works. You got that, you got the game. The easier enemies are a romp, but it ramps up quite a bit on the World Circuit, and Mr. Sandman is a complete pain (harder than Super Macho Man, in fact). This is one of the games where you won’t win every contest, but if you’re persistent and do just enough right one time, you’ll eventually prevail. In fact, this is the perfect game for someone who just got an NES. Have fun and cut your teeth wiping out the easy early opponents, gradually improve your skills, and work your way toward Tyson when you’re ready.

The Legend of Zelda is a sprawling adventure with tons of secrets; probably the hardest thing about it is finding out where everything is. Other than that, the keys to success are persistence, remembering where things are, finding out what works against whom, and plain ‘ol good luck. Most players won’t have a problem finishing eventually (like most action RPGs of this ilk, there’s no way to “lose” other than giving up), but finishing without continuing is a lofty goal. Then there’s the little issue of the second quest, and I leave it to you whether to include it in the difficulty equation.

I played Contra and Super Contra as a kid and had a lot of fun seeing how far I could go with the lives codes. The thing is that while there are very few “safe” parts of the game, neither are there any life-burning monstrosities. One death in the corridors, one death to a sniper, one death to the flamethrowers. Going the distance with 3 lives is a serious challenge (as it was in the arcade), but even a novice should be able to get to the third level without much trouble. This is one of those games where you can always go further as long as you have the lives (hence the codes!). I guess difficulty is a matter of perspective in this case. I will say that these are absolute milk runs compared to the PS2 offerings.

Battletoads is the one game that comes up all the time in these discussions. The truly amazing thing about this game is that not only is it ridiculously, crazily, stupidly hard, it’s like this for most of the game. The levels have…brr…checkpoints as well, and even the places that don’t have insanely tough enemies that can run down your lives like nothing. It says something that the MAJORITY of enemies can take you out with one attack.

Double Dragon isn’t difficult so much as sneaky and dirty. The vast majority of the enemies are no trouble, and even the final bosses are managable with the right strategy. What’ll really throw you for a loop are the hazards…water, spikes, inconvenient gaps. And of course the sliding blocks, which have killed more of my games than everything else put together. Also, unlike the arcade version, you can waste a lot of time on the third mission if you don’t go where you should. As long as you pick your shots wisely (hint: kicks are easy, punches are what get you experience points) and have a little luck with the sliding blocks, you can finish this without any tricks or glitches. The fact that you only get 3 lives (and can’t earn any more) contribute to the difficulty in finishing it more than anything else.

The Adventures of Bayou Billy can get really frustrating, mainly because the vast majority of the time, you cannot get aggressive. In the fighting stages, since you can only hit one enemy at a time, you’ll be spending at least as much time maneuvering, dodging, positioning, and just plain running like hell as you do breaking jaws, and survival often hinges on obtaining a healing item before you get beaten to a pulp. The two driving stages are just plain brutal, and you pretty much have no choice but to take it slow and be very careful to avoid all those rocks and posts, losing a life to time if need be. (A total of 2 lives lost is a fantastic result any day.) Get aggressive, get impatient…get the continue screen. It’s that simple. Additionally, level 7, the final shooting one, is very much make-or-break. If you die here even once, you have to start level 8 without a whip and bulletproof vest, which reduce your chances to a shade better than “no”. And don’t even pretend that you’re going to take out Rocky and Rocco without a whip. In all, not impossible but really difficult. I think I was able to finish it twice without help.

[I got a whole bunch more, including Xenophobe, Rush 'n Attack, Blaster Master, Rolling Thunder, Kid Icarus, and Castlevania 2; I’ll put them up if this thread goes anywhere. Anything you want to add, go ahead.]

NES games required a huge time investment, which made them difficult to complete. No mid-level checkpoints and of course no saves. Even games that did let you save wouldn’t allow it during a particular grueling stretch of dungeon, such as Final Fantasy. Most of the time you’d get half way through a game, lose your continues, then replay the same levels until you got to that difficult point again, die again, start over, etc. The hardest NES game becomes ridiculously easy when you use the emulator’s save function, even if you limit yourself to only saving between levels.

Today’s games aren’t necessarily easier, but they’re definitely more “casual.” They reward creativity and exploration rather than memorization and reflexes, which is good in my opinion. When I play a game I want to have fun. The NES gave me a lot of entertainment, but also frustrated me to no end. That made the victories all the sweeter, but in the end, it’s just a game.

For hardest game I’ll nominate Double Dragon III. I couldn’t beat it even WITH the game genie.

I still have never won the original Super Mario Brothers. (On the other hand, SMB3 I could beat in about 10-15 minutes, with the whistles). There’s plenty of NES games I have been unable to beat, but pretty much every single current generation game I’ve played very much feels more like an interactive movie than a game you really need to practice over and over and over to win. There’s so many save points, power-ups, and other life-extenders that you don’t have to endlessly repeat levels to win. I can’t think of very many games that make you start all over at level one and require you to finish the game in one go, like many older games did.

Ninja Gaiden series. Ghouls n Ghosts. Ikari Warriors.

Hmm… uhm. Those are pretty much the iconic bears. Oooh. Castlevania, I guess.

I skipped from Atari 2600 to Gamecube. Why are checkpoints bad?

I remember beating Metroid was an enormous time consuming challenge, and that was using the cheat map

Okay, good discussion, I’m kinda getting the idea, but I’m looking for specific examples. As many as possible. (I do know from experience what a beast Final Fantasy is.)

pulykamell - Really? That’s a surprise. I never got anywhere in SMB3 without a pile of documents; the first game I had down cold in about a month. Is there a certain enemy you can’t get by? Are you stuck in 7-4 or 8-4 because you don’t know how to get through? I can help.

E-Sabbath - I know about Ghosts 'n Goblins (Ghouls 'n Ghosts was for the Super NES). Ikari Warriors was just about impossible, but it was like that in the arcades as well…Paul and Vince are just too dang easy to kill. I’m not sure just how hard the Ninja Gaiden games were; they seem upper-end but not exactly the pinnacle.

Castlevania, that one’s a little funny. The first two levels are a piece of cake, and the third isn’t too hard once you know how. The fourth, however, has all kinds of nasty tricks and traps to eat up your lives, and you need some luck to beat the Monster at the end. Death (level 5 boss) is just ridiculous; you’re pretty much toast if you don’t have the boomerang and at least a Double Shot. The final boss was where I threw in the towel. You need to get 16 hits, and then you need to bet 32 more hits, all before taking 4 in response. It’s funny though…you ask some players (I know one on here and pretty much everyone on GameFAQs with an opinion), the whole game is a piece of cake. YMMV.

ZenBeam - By “checkpoints”, this means that when you die, you start the next life at a specific earlier point. For Super Mario Bros., this isn’t too much of a headache. For Ghosts 'n Goblins, Rolling Thunder, or, well, Battletoads, it can make the game a complete nightmare. It depends, really, on how easy it is to get killed.

Okay, a few more:

Rad Racer, much like the the driving levels in Adventures of Bayou Billy, isn’t hard so much as tedious. Accelerate. Turbo. Brake for the turn. Accel. BrakebrakebrakeBRAKE. Accel. Braaaaaake. Repeat. Wouldn’t be too hard except for the extremely dirty tactic of putting stationary cars on the road for the sole purpose of wrecking you. THAT’S just unforgivable. I think I made it as far as level 6 a couple of times without help. No continuing, so it’s a monumental, incredibly grueling haul to reach the end. Other than that, it’s more pointless than impossible.

Xenophobe is easy, easy, easy, eeeeeeassy. So easy it’s boring. The only times you are in any danger at all are when there’s a floating gun in the room, which’ll chip off a bit of damage before crumbling, and when you have to face two snotterpillars at once, the only spawning enemies that are any threat whatsoever. Go to a room with a bomber safely out of the way, and you’ll never face more than one spawner at a time and can mop up all the way to a successful extermination. And if you’re fortunate enough to get an improved weapon, it’s lights-out time. Even better, health boosts appear frequently, so you can easily make up your minor losses with interest. I can get maximum score on this with my eyes closed. Well, okay, not literally, but fairly close.

The fact that no one has ever come up with a foolproof strategy for Pro Wrestling speaks volumes. The problem is that NOTHING is 100% reliable…not sobats, not punches, nothing…and grappling is chancy as hell, with ridiculous results happening routinely. It doesn’t help that you can never know for sure just how damaged you or your opponent is. And the 5 minute timer was a horrible idea, allowing the dirtbag CPU to take a colossal beating and still escape with a draw. It should’ve been at least 15 minutes. The first few matches are pretty easy, but the title defenses get increasingly brutal, and Great Puma’s durability is beyond ridiculous. Still, as NES games go, this is more annoying than murderous.

Rolling Thunder, if you can imagine it, is even more murderous on the NES than in the arcade. It suffers from two problems: 1. checkpoints, and 2. absolutely impossible areas. The hero dying after taking two bumps or one bullet didn’t help. Belongs in any “ridiculously hard NES games” discussion.

The consensus for Blaster Master is that the toughest part is the lack of any save system. (It could have at least given a code every time you won an upgrade.) Both the hero and his vehicle are fairly tough, and there aren’t many extremely deadly enemies, so even a beginner can go quite a while before giving out. Near the end, however, keeping your gun power up is paramount, and for the last boss it should be considered make-or-break territory.

Metal Gear, despite the military theme, is very similar to The Legend of Zelda. Go places, collect important items, know what works against whom (if you lose the map with the handy weapon/enemy chart, you’re going to struggle a LOT), and discover crucial secrets however you can, by sheer brute force if need be. It doesn’t get painfully difficult so much as frustrating, especially when you need a very specific weapon to take out a tenacious foe, and if you don’t have a critical item at the right time (e.g. the flashlight), you can waste a lot of time slogging back and forth looking for stuff. Solid Snake has a pretty tough hide (even tougher once you find the body armor), so there’s not much to fear other than the really tough foes and instant death traps.

The NES has a huge library, so it’s probably possible to pull games from it specifically to make any point.

Whether or not you actually like his videos, the ‘Angry Video Game Nerd’ has illustrated a bunch of ‘Nintendo Hard’ games, though his schtick is ‘sucky’ games.

Hard games I’ve played myself, dubbed ‘hard’ because of either randomness, poor control, or other issues:

  • Athena
  • Milon’s Secret Castle
  • Paperboy
  • Karnov
  • Friday the 13th
  • Metroid (not epically difficult, just took lots of time and skill, never did beat Mother Brain…)
  • Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
  • Stinger
  • 1942
  • Maniac Mansion

But there are different kinds of ‘hard’, too. Some games are ‘hard’ because they require TONS of time and lots of problem solving, like Maniac Mansion. Knowing just what to do at just the right spot. Some are hard because of awful control, or not knowing where to go, and the game doesn’t tell you. Some are just bizarre, like Athena. There’s different kinds of hard.

There’s probably more I’ve played and would consider ‘hard’, but I can’t think of them right at the moment.

Some, like the Adventures of Lolo games were subjectively hard depending on how good you were at puzzles and such.

I think the majority of the “difficulty” in NES games came from the fact that small mistakes could result in a huge loss of your time investment. Yeah a full game might be three to four hours in length but screwing up in hour two could send you back to the beginning. It was bad game design even back then but it was necessary given the limitations of the platform. That was why even by the SNES era things were changing with more games that had some kind of battery storage, passwords, and/or unlimited continuing.

And when NES games did have passwords, some of them were nearly impossible to properly enter, or even write down.

Hard NES games tended to be Nintendo Hard, meaning the difficulty was contrived as opposed to honest: Dying with one hit, having ‘bullets’ slower than some of the enemies, insane time limits, and so on. The only way to beat it is a mix of quick-twitch reflexes and rote memorization. It’s a prime example of Fake Difficulty.

See also the “NES-a-day challenge”.

I hate that tvtropes site. Every time I go there it sucks up my time.

<Shakes fist at Derleth>

I’ve still got eight tabs open.

The other cars weren’t stationary in Rad Racer. They were just going road speeds (55 MPH), which seemed like a tortoise compared to the 180+ MPH the player’s car went. There was also a continue code, but it was hard as hell to pull off.

But now you make me wonder, why the hell isn’t Rad Racer on the Virtual Console, it was radical!

I read somewhere a while back that the early Japanese game culture never meant for you to finish the game it was the play that was the thing. ‘Beating the game’ is an American concept and so early Japanese programmers never even bothered to put an end to their games. (i.e. Donkey Kong).

I dunno. When did the idea of “beating” a video game even start? I guess some of the old Atari games had endings (Pitfall, maybe? Definitely the Indy Jones game, and the old Adventure game, which might have been the first). But the default for video games at the time Donkey Kong came out was pretty much “you fight (or run around in circles eating dots) until you die.”

I’ve taken on the task of trying to beat every NES game ever made (the process is slowing down because I got the Dragon Warrior bug when the remake of 4 came out). There’s a link to my thread about that above. All I can say is that if you can beat The Adventures of Bayou Billy, you can beat ANYTHING.

I haven’t played the original since I was about 13, but my problem was that I just didn’t have the mechanics or reflexes mastered to even get to level 8-4. I think 8-3 is as far as I ever got. Maybe only 8-2. SMB2, on the other hand, I had the timing down on those bonus games (the slot machine) to get something like 99 lives, and SMB3 is super easy and quick to finish if you found the whistles. Here’s an 11-minute speed run that shows the basic technique. I’ve never tried a full-fledged speed run, but my guess is that it probably takes me 20 minutes to finish (revised from my earlier estimate), and that’s something I was still able to do as recently as 5 years ago.

edit: I should add the linked-to speed run is not a genuine speed run (the guy slowed it down to get all the amazing jumps in 8-1 and so on perfect), but it outlines the same path I take. One trick I do that that guy doesn’t is on the ship-in-the-sea-of-fire level in world 8, I just swim under the ship and avoid all the enemies that way.

As opposed to early American games like Pong, Asteroids, and Defender.

That doesn’t really doesn’t pan out. Virtually early arcade games were like that mainly due to how the system worked: you had a set of rules and attempted to achieve the high score based on those. It was an outgrowth of pinball and nearly every arcade game at that point followed that rule.

It was when games started acquiring a narrative that by necessity they would have an ending. Computer games, for example, especially the interactive fiction that started in the late seventies were the front runner there but a handful of console games such as Atari’s Adventure (not to be confused with ports of Colossal Cavern) and Superman had distinct “endings” where once the player had achieved the goal.

There was no east/west split in this regard; more of an arcade/home split.