Dinosaurs and Treetops

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_088.html

I recall seeing something recently to the effect that the sauropods couldn’t have lifted their necks up to allow treetop feeding. The scientist who postulated this had determined that the bone structure of the neck vertebrae was such that articulation upward was not possible. He then postulated that it would be difficult, if not impossible, to pump blood up the neck to the head. I can’t find the reference now: anyone know who’s idea this is and what the buzz is about it?

i believe it was in Discover magazine a few months ago - don’t have a cite for it.

Cecil, baby! You missed a crucial detail.

Dinosaurs probably grew big because it’s easier to stomp the begeezus out of a predator when you weigh 6 or 8 tons.

Mammals don’t grow that big because we are a higher energy density form of life. Your average mammal can increase it’s heat and work output by a factor of 10 from resting to full boogie. The problem for us types is getting rid of the heat. On land, elephants are about the limit. People do it better than most types of animals, even other mammals.

One way for people who are in really stellar shape to hunt is to just start jogging after their chosen prey on a really hot day. Four or five hours later, you can walk up and stab whatever it is for dinner. Zulu hunters do this for a living.

Big animals don’t get rid of heat so easy. Apparently swarms of hyperkinetic little animals is a more effective way of exploiting an ecological niche than a few great big slow ones.

Remember, from nature’s point of view, it’s not the survival of the individual that matters, it’s the survival of the species.

Which brings up a scary point; evolution isn’t done just yet. There is nothing saying that animals our size and shape are always going to be the most effective. Generally, anything capable of higher energy density will win in a brawl. On the street, that means quicker, faster, stronger, meaner, & smarter.

Quick, what is one type of moving object you can think of that has much higher energy density than people? That is incredibly quicker than us? And that coincidentally happens to be doubling it’s intelligence every 18 months? We better stay on top of this particular tiger, kids, there won’t be a second chance.

First, about the sauropod’s neck. Yes, the reference is in a Discover magazine from about a year ago but I can’t find it because I’m stranded in a foreign country. It shouldn’t be hard to find, there’s a big sauropod’s (four-legged, long-necked dinosaur’s) skeleton on the cover.

What the article said was that their neck had little vertical mobility: they couldn’t raise their neck much higher than their shoulders and not much lower than the plane of their legs. This was just enough so that they could get a drink of water, I guess.

They had much more horizontal mobility, but many couldn’t even touch their own body with their snout by curling their neck sideways. The incorrect assumption was that since sauropods had long necks they were like giraffes, the basic modern-day equivalent. Not so, it seems.

So why the long neck? One interesting theory is that the long neck counter-balanced the long tail, not the other way around. Sauropods were huge, a natural defence in itself, but they couldn’t run; they could only walk fast. A large tyrannosaurus could have walked to this big stomach on legs and have lunch without too much trouble, except if he got smacked on the head by a tail as long as he was.

The tail was a huge limb. It had good horizontal mobility and a small nudge from the big muscles at the base of the tail would have made the tail into a (possibly sound-barrier breaking) whip. So the tail was probably used for defence.

The one exception is the brachiosaurids, whose fore-limbs were longer than their hind-limbs and whose neck structure seems to have supported a near vertical stance. Now, how could the blood have been pumped up to that height? No one knows, but there are theories, such as multiple heart-like muscles distributed through the length of the neck and pumping the blood up there. That seems strange, but with dinosaurs, you never know.

As for the size issue, I would like to point out that there are no inherent problems with large-sized mammals (or any warm-blooded animals). Elephants are not the limit of mammalian gigantism. Following the extinction of the dinosaurs mammals overtook all the niches that had previously been dinosaur territory and in so doing grew to astounding sizes very quickly. One stunning example is the baluchitherium, a rhinoceros-related animal that grew to be 5m (16 feet) tall and weighted roughly 16 metric tons.

Okay, so dinosaurs still win the gold on land for sheer mass, but mammals are the biggest animals in the sea. No animal at the time of dinosaurs approached the size of the blue whale.

Size can be quite an advantage for animals in general. Naturally, larger plant-eaters deter predators, and larger predators can take on a whole new range of prey. Secondly, being bigger makes you less vulnerable to sudden temperature changes.

Here is a little math: volume increases in a given shape by the cube of its length (or any other linear dimension). If you want to visualise this, imagine a cube that has a one-unit long side. Its surface area is therefore six square units. Its volume is one square unit. If you make a cube that has twice the side length, its surface area becomes 24 square units and its volume, 8 cube units.

That means that while its length doubles, its surface becomes four times bigger and its volume, eight times bigger! That’s very significant and means that bigger animals have less surface area per volume through which they lose and gain their heat. Therefore they have a stabler body temperature.

One would figure that in the case of a very warm environment, smaller animals are better off. After all, when it gets really hot they can hide in shadows or burrow under the cool earth while big animals are just stuck out there while the heat keeps coming on. For example, just imagine a herd of elephants jostling to get under a tree in the African savanna.

Not so. Using elephants as an example again, big animals receive less heat per volume than smaller ones. As well, the excess heat is safely stored away inside their body, away from organs that wouldn’t function as well with so much heat. An elephant can do this long enough to get through the day. A small animal doesn’t have enough body volume to do this, and therefore run the risk of overheating and dying. As well, when night comes little mammals must keep moving or hide in a well-insulated place to keep their body temperature at a reasonable level. The African savanna can get rather cool at night. Elephants, on the other hand, don’t lose their heat so quickly in the first place and can just release the excess heat they had stored during the day to keep warm and cozy throughout the night.

This only works for mammals and warm-blooded animals, though. Small cold-blooded animals can let their body temperature drop without feeling ill effects, except that naturally they can’t be bothered to move then, or only very slowly. This can be a disadvantage when something hairy and warm comes to chew on them in the middle of the night. However, the argument that bigger size makes for stabler body temperature holds true for cold-blooded animals too.

Only humans do inhuman things.

Speakeasy:

“On the street, that means. . .”. . .assault weapons. Pretty good energy density there.

And I’d say nature has more than a one-track mind. She worries about not only about a species and an individual and a part of an individual’s surviving, but also of others of each not surviving, that the first might do so, etc., etc. IOW, Darwinian stuff doesn’t add up linearly; it’s however you want to look at it (preferably without bringing in religious notions).

Ray (With no value, why did I survive?)

The issue of Discover magazine that jti and Momotaro reference is November 1997, about computer-simulations to try to understand dinosaur neck and tail movement. Momo does a good job of summarizing, I’d like to add one minor amendment to his comment that the dinosaurs could not touch their own bodies with their heads. The article found essentially two different types of long necks:

  • contortionists (like apatosaurus) with very flexible necks, who could look directly behind itself or twist its neck into a forward-looking S-shape; some of these could almost touch the side of their rib cage with their nose; and
  • Strait-jackets (like diplodocus) with very very limited neck mobility.

One conclusion is that in many sauropods the the head was probably held DOWN, lowered, not up, so that “diplodocus with its rigid downward-sloping neck and its head close to the ground, might have spent most of its time feeding like a grazing cow on ground-hugging vegetation.”

The giraffe-like pose with head held high was (according to this study) not possible. “The 80-foot long brachiosaurus … normally held its 30-foot neck at about 20 degrees above the horizontal, it’s head only 18 feet above the ground. It could move only some 9 feet to either side. … The lowest that brachiosaurus could get its head was about five feet off the ground.”

just like to toss my 1/2 cent in here. maybe the reason the dinos were able to reach such enormous proportions stems from the fact that they were able to exploit an abundant resource (land based plant life) without severe predation from others. by the time the plant resource became a contested commodity, herbivores were at most impressive sizes. the evolving predators would then have to be large enough to take them down.

i don’t know if the predators evolved from the herbivores, but maybe it at least took some time, evolutionarily speaking, for the predators to follow them onto land.

Thank-you for the references to the magazine article I half-remembered. Age does stupid things to memory…wait, that’s another thread…

As for the size issue, let’s not forget certain facts during the debate:

  1. There were dinosaurs of all sizes, large and small, both apparently herbivorous and definitely carnivorous.

  2. Mammals came after and started smaller.

  3. The climate may have been different, based on the available data on plant life at the time.

And yes, all you creationists, it is bones that exist, and we may all be wrong about evolution, but for one thing, that is another thread in General Questions, and besides, kinda pointless to debate dinosaur development if all you can say about it is: they are big cause God made the bones that way. :wink:

Actually, mammals have been around for about as long as Dinosaurs, and there was an early age of mammals before the age of Dinsaurs.


John W. Kennedy
“Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.”
– Charles Williams

Don’t suppose you would care to supply some authority for that statement?

The material I read said that mammals are descended from Synapsid reptiles. While it is true Synapsids were present prior to the Mesozoic, it would appear that mammal-like animals didn’t start appearing until sometime in the Triassic and there is considerable debate as to when exactly these animals stopped being reptiles and became actual mammals.

As for Dinosaurs, technically, they were diapsid reptiles, specifically the orders saurischia and ornithiscia. Exactly when the diapsids emerged is unclear to me, but clearly they were present early in the Triassic, along with a number of other reptiles often lumped together ‘commercially’ as “dinosaurs” (e.g. Icthyosaurs).

I stand by my statement: Mammals, TRUE mammals, developed after the dinosaurs and were smaller, in general, than the dinosaurs.

Now if someone can provide reliable source material to refute this, I have been known to listen. :wink:

DSYoungEsq:

I will not place mammals prior to dinosaurs, but the Encyclopædia Britannica places the origins of dinosaurs between 230 and 235 million years ago. Mammal Evolution (Savage and Long) places the earliest mammals at exactly the same time. Both sources say that the earliest numbers are fuzzy in either event.


Tom~

<< but the Encyclopædia Britannica places the origins of dinosaurs between 230 and 235 million years ago. >>

Before or after lunch?

Here’s what paleobotany, an often unacknowledged field of science, tells us about evolution: all the major ®evolutions in the animal kingdom were preceded by new adaptations in the plant kingdom. For example, animals moved onto land only after plants had colonized the milieu, and animals could not become bigger until they had a reliable supply of plant matter to feed upon.

Plants, the ultimate non-predators, are the basis of the food chain. They photosynthesize, take raw energy and resources, and store them. They are then predated upon (vegetarians are technically plant-life predators) and so on up the food chain. This is confirmed by the fossil record.

Since plant life has nothing holding it back except the resources it exploits, it naturally covered most of the exposed land mass. Vegetarians followed suit, and predators naturally became bigger to take on new prey. It’s really no wonder dinosaurs got as big as they did as long as they were supported by abundant flora. A more interesting question is, why did dinosaurs get so big and become the top of the terrestrial food chain while mammals
were forced to scrounge on the leftovers until they became prey themselves?

The most recent evidence seems to show that both dinosaurs and true mammals appeared at the same time sometime before the Triassic period of the Mesozoic era. At that time advanced representatives of both orders competed for the same resources. Even the mammals attained impressive sizes. From memory, since I don’t have my references with me, there were vegetarians of about 3 meters long. In the Triassic period the dinosaurs began getting really big and big species of mammals didn’t survive the transition.

Let me define true mammals, though. We are talking about animals that had already developed a vertical stance, differentiated teeth (incisors, canines, molars), viviparous (live birth), characteristic nimbleness, sweat glands, and fur. I’m not pulling your leg there, since there are several skin impressions that show those details clearly.

As for ‘true’ dinosaurs, they had the vertical stance associated with warm-blooded animals, but they hadn’t really improved significantly on the reptilian design. For example, they still had undifferentiated teeth. Only later would feathers and the bipedal stance appear, once dinosaurs had established themselves at the top of the food chain and as size record breakers.

So why did mammals lose out so decisively to dinosaurs?


Only humans do inhuman things.

Cecil summarily ignored the questioners conjecture about the possibilty of lesser gravity in the days of the dinosaurs. Granted the questioners centrifugal force hypothesis was a bit absurd but the notion of lesser gravity is not far fetched. The “expanding earth theory” lends direct support to the idea that gravity during the age of dinosaurs was perhaps 80% of todays force due to the earth’s mass being proportionately less. This would explain how the extremely large creatures could have lifted their massive necks and indeed even fly. Rather than my going into a lengthy discorse about this very plausible theory, I suggest those interested visit this site for starters: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/8098/HomePage.htm

Mmmh, I’ve just read the explanation of the Expanding Earth Theory. I don’t buy it. It doesn’t make sense to completely discredit the Continental Drift Theory because it contains some inconsistencies. The Expanding Earth Theory is even more far-fetched, especially the cosmological theory that’s necessary to justify it.

In spite of this, it’s still a fascinating theory and I suggest a thread be posted about it. That is, if anyone can get through the obstuse text and the author’s shrill tone.

Gravity has changed through time as a function of the rotational speed of the Earth. As continents drifted (or did they?) the montains obstructed the natural air currents and caused transfers of momentum. Unfortunately, I don’t have any data with me on this and I don’t know if there is a correlation with that phenomenon and the gigantism of the dinosaurs.

On the other hand, many people now believe that oxygen levels were slightly higher at the time of the dinosaurs. However, paleontologists will agree that, structurally, the dinosaurs were well suited to large sizes. Their relative ‘stiffness’ of body was possibly a boon to gigantism.

Most likely they didn’t really need vastly different gravity or oxygen levels to attain the size they did.

If anyone wants to read a good vulgarisation of advanced paleontological findings as well as an interesting theoretical account of how dinosaurs lived, get your hands on “Predatory Dinosaurs of the World” by Gregory S. Paul.

Momotaro, you wrote:
“even more far-fetched, especially the cosmological theory that’s necessary to justify it.”
Galileo was told the same thing about his theory of the solar system.
The “expanding earth theory” (EET) goes back further than the “continental drift theory”
and really what is needed to prove it is
not cosmological but quantum theoretical evidence for the spontaneous creation (or recreation) of matter through fission, fusion or a process yet to be discovered. For example, what happens to all the matter that is sucked in to a black hole? It amazes me that intelligent people can accept the something from nothing Big Bang theory and yet discount the EET in favor of an “always the same size earth theory.” Expansion is the paradigm of our universe.

If you prefer a less “shrill”, scholarly geological dissertation on the expanding earth theory I recommend you read the material by Professor S. Warren Carey which is contained on the web site I last posted.

There are physics, cosmological and geological newsgroups that have been discussing EET for many years and I’m not sure this board is a good place to start
the thread from scratch again.

Ray14dot4:

Umm, no. Galileo’s first lectures and published texts met with raised eyebrows regarding his claims for moons around Jupiter. Once his original critics got hold of telescopes equalling Galileo’s in power, they observed the moons and accepted his claims. The next issue for which Galileo was taken to task was his claim that the planetary orbits were perfect circles–for which his critics quite rightly roasted him.

Going by the same logic, Bill Swiggle was laughed out of the room when he proposed that the sun was extinguished each evening and reignited the next morning as it arose over the flat earth’s eastern horizon. So? Pointing out errors in older scientific notions does not justify newer scientific notions.

I do not immediately dismiss the expanding earth theory, but matter leaping into existence (only in the center of a planet?) is not going to go very far to persuade me.


Tom~

Galileo’s notion of circular orbits was taken direct from Copernicus, who got it from the existing geocentric system of Aristotle and Ptolemy. On that point, it was he who was the hidebound conservative who had to be corrected by the younger Kepler.


John W. Kennedy
“Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.”
– Charles Williams

I can see I landed in a nest of nitpickers. Next time I’ll make my historical analogy
anal retentively exact.

Tom, no one said “matter leaping into existence (only in the center of a planet?)”
It is a universal process. Stars are near the end of the process (guess what happens to the mass of a star that makes it implode). The Earth near the beginning.
Jupiter could be said to be near the middle since it has characteristics of a brown dwarf.

I’ll not waste your time anymore. Check out the newsgroups if your still intrested. I usually don’t participate in these pissing contests and now I remember why.

A star does not “implode” due to an increase in mass it collapses because it runs out of fuel.

A star is basically a big, hot cloud of gas. Though it radiates a lot of heat outward, the fusion reactions in its core are constantly generating more energy, and keeping the temperature high.

If you’ll recall from basic physics, a hot gas exerts more pressure than a cold gas. Higher pressure causes the size of the gas cloud to be greater. When a star begins to run out of fuel, it also begins to cool down, thus lowering its internal pressure and allowing it to shrink in on itself slightly.

After it has “burned” all the fusable elements it contains, the star will continue cooling and collapsing, until it reaches equilibrium as a big frozen rock.

(Here I’m assuming a small star, so we don’t have to talk about neutronium or supernovae. If you want the rest of the gory details, just ask.)


Of course I don’t fit in; I’m part of a better puzzle.