Dio, at it again and raising the bar

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Brown_Eyed_Girl

You’re talking out your ass. We don’t give a shit what your opinion is.

Then why are you so upset about it?

Don’t forget the “jailed for life” comment.

What about it? I expressed an opinion about what the punishment SHOULD be. I didn’t claim that’s what it atually WAS.

[Bearflag70]

You argued that it was murder and criminal negligence per se. You argued mental state is irrelevant to a legal discussion on this topic. You argued mental state is irrelevant to criminal negligence. You argued the act is criminal negligence regardless of mental state. You argued criminal negligence is “automatic” by statute. You were wrong.

When the infraction cites were presented, I immediately admitted I was wrong in claiming there was no crime. There is a crime: an infraction. I was right as to criminal negligence and homicide, but wrong in saying there is no crime.

Why don’t you step up and do likewise?

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

You’re grasping at straws. It is possible to have an opinion that someone is a murderer without that person having to be convicted of it. It’s not just a legal term (actually, I think “homicide” is more common in the written statutes).
This objection has no relevance to the legal discussion. It’s just you being offended by my opinion of people who commit a particular crime.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

What did I say that was factually wrong, dude, and what have I changed position on? I made one legal claim. I was right. Other people were wrong (and they DID deny that it was a per se crime to leave a kid in a car. It wasn’t a “no shit” situation). I think you’re reading a different thread than what’s actually here.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Not special, NORMAL. MOST parents would never do it. It’s fucking bullshit to say that they would.

That’s not what the pitting is for, though. The pitting is because I said that it isn’t necessary for leaving the aby to be intentional in order for it to be negligent homicide. That is a factually correct statement, not an opinion. Some people want to change the laws to make it legal if they say it was an acident. I object to that.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Leaving a baby alone in a car is automatically negligent, regardless of state of mind.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Negligence is not a state of mind, it’s a physical act. States of mind cannot be legislated. there is nothing in any statute that says leaving a baby in a car has to be willful to be illegal.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

I know what mens rea means, by the way. It’s not relevant in these cases. They are strict liability crimes.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

A reasonable person would be aware that leaving a baby in a car could hurt it.

Plus, it’s just flat illegal to leave a baby in the car. There aren’t any loopholes or exceptions. Whether it results in death is neither here nor there. it’s negligent whether the parent intended it or not.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Show me a statute that says intent must be proven to find a person negliegent for leaving baby in the car.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

It sounds like they are. If they know the danger, then they are negligent.

What cases would those be? Cite?

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Ok, I said “murderers.” That’s a subjective opinion. You don’t have to like it, but it’s just an opinion. I still didn’t say the punishment was life in prison. I just said it was illegal to leave the baby in the car, and everyone else kept talking about criminal negligence laws when I was talking about unattended child laws

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

For the record, I never claimed it was a felony, I just said it was illegal.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

I already do that. That’s why it absolutely can’t happen to me. Parents who do that crap should be jailed for life. They are murderers. I am better they are. I will not be told that I would ever do the same thing. There’s no way in hell.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

There is no contradiction. A few seconds is not a few hours.

I am not just like them, and you do have to put parents who do this in jail or you’re just giving people a legal way to kill their kids on purpose and get away with it by saying it was an accident.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

They’re not innocent, they killed a baby, and if you don’t want to jail them, then you’re saying it should be legal to leave a baby in a car until it dies. Why do you want to legalize that? That’s horrific.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

For those who object to punishment for this kind of negligence – are you saying that leaving a baby in a car until it dies should be legal? If not, the what are you saying? Is it a crime or isn’t it?

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

It automatically means you committed an act of negligance, How you are as a parent otherwise is utterly irrelevant.

Should it be legal to leave a baby in a car until it dies, yes or no?

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

So you’re now saying it should be legal? Anyone who wants to kill their baby need only leave it to die in their car and receive a get-out-of-jail-free card?

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

So it should be legal to leave a baby in a car until it dies?

If somebody decides they want to kill their baby on purpose, you would be in favor of giving them a free and legal way to do it?

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

There is ignorance involved with this, not just negligence. It’s not necessarily forseeable or knowable to a lot of parents that taking their kids to McDonalds could make them diabetic. It’s forseeable to all of them that leaving a baby in a hot car could kill it.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

How should I know? That’s my point. How can ANYBODY tell if its intentional or not? What would be the means of making that determination? If they cry a lot, they’re innocent? Susan Smith cried a lot. Casey Anthony cried a lot. So what?

If a parent leaves a baby in a car, and the baby dies, and those facts are agreed to, we have a case of negligent homicide. If you want to make an exception and let them go if the act was unintentional, somebody is going to have to PROVE it was unintentional. How do you do that? Are you going to let them go unless intentionality can also be proven beyond a reasonable doubt? In that case, you’d be making it awfully easy to get away with.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

If you give them the loophole, there definitely are parents who would plan on “forgetting.”

Forgetting is not an excuse.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

This is not a profitable analogy. It does not involve an act of negligence on the part of the driver. Forgetting a baby is negligence. It’s not an excuse, it’s a negligent act in itself.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

How exactly are you defining the “crime” now? The act of leaving a baby in the car until it dies IS the crime. If that much is proven, the crime is proven. What other circumstances are you suggesting should be present?

It sounds like you’re saying the state should have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the parent did it on purpose. Is that what you’re saying? If that’s the case, you’re essentially making it legal, since it would be virtually impossible to ever prove intentionality unless the person confessed to someone.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

I don’t care. I’m not asking those juries anything, I’m asking whether people posting here think leaving a baby in a car until it dies should be legalized. They seem to think it does.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Show me where any statute says that intent is a factor in the legality of leaving a baby in a car.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

That’s what I’M trying to find out. Apparently, they at least think the law should be changed so that intentionality has to be proven. If that’s the case, they’d be making it almost impossible to get convictions.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

I meant to say that the other way around. I can’t believe I did that. I meant to say the presumption of innocence still obtains, yes of course, but that the burden is already met if it is undisputed that a parent left a baby in the car. Intentionality is not something that has to be proven, only that they did it.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Leaving a baby in a car is automatically criminally negligent by statute.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Show me a statute that says that intentionality must be proven.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

It doesn’t have to be established. Intent is irreelvant. No intent is necessary for it to be negligence.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

It’s legally irrelevant in the acse of leaving a baby in the car. No intent is required in order for it to be a crime. Why is that so hard to understand? It’s not a legal excuse to say you forgot.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

What post has proven me wrong? Show me a statute that says intent is necessary.

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Yes it is. The statutes have been cited.

No it isn’t. The statutes only apply to a small fraction of the US.

[MsWhatsit]

Bearflag, you’re a mensch for going to all that trouble. Honestly.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Labrador_Deceiver

Again, where did anyone say that it was okay that these people killed their children? Oh wait, they didn’t. Moron.

I see a whole bunch of people saying the parents have no culpability at all and should suffer no punishment. That’s pretty close to saying it’s ok from where I’m standing.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Notorious_Nik

My kid is just fine, thank you. She’ll never slowly cook to death in the back seat of my car.

Do you believe that, before the moment when they killed their child, the parents in the cited article showed any sign of being relevantly different from you? If so, in what respect were they different? Did they love their children less? Were they less attentive to their children than you are? Were they more absent-minded?

What behavior prior to killing their children differentiates them from you?

It’s easy in hindsight to see the difference. But you’re making a prediction about the future based on the present state of affairs; and in order to do that within a causal universe, you need to point to the relevant differences.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Bearflag70

You argued that it was murder and criminal negligence per se.

No, I argued that it was illegal, per se to leave a baby in a car.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

I see a whole bunch of people saying the parents have no culpability at all and should suffer no punishment. That’s pretty close to saying it’s ok from where I’m standing.

Once more I advise you to read the linked article. Refusing to do so is willful ignorance; refusing to do so, and continuing to discuss the matter, is the height of arrogant willful ignorance.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Labrador_Deceiver

No it isn’t. The statutes only apply to a small fraction of the US.

Including the state actually relevant to the original thread.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Once more I advise you to read the linked article. Refusing to do so is willful ignorance; refusing to do so, and continuing to discuss the matter, is the height of arrogant willful ignorance.

What does reading the article have to do with whether people in this hread are excusing the parents?

[Notorious_Nik]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Do you believe that, before the moment when they killed their child, the parents in the cited article showed any sign of being relevantly different from you? If so, in what respect were they different? Did they love their children less? Were they less attentive to their children than you are? Were they more absent-minded?

What behavior prior to killing their children differentiates them from you?

It’s easy in hindsight to see the difference. But you’re making a prediction about the future based on the present state of affairs; and in order to do that within a causal universe, you need to point to the relevant differences.

Obviously they were less attentive. They forgot a human being was in the car with them, and allowed them to slowly cook to death.

[Rand_Rover]

Very entertaining, Dio. Nice job. I’m just glad it only took 4 pages to get to the reveal.

[magellan01]

Dio, please punch yourself in the face repeatedly. You are your own worst enemy. This thread is just one more example.

Gah!

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Including the state actually relevant to the original thread.

You said it is automatically illegal to leave a child unattended in a car, period. It is not. You were wrong.

[billfish678]

@MsWhatsit

Bearflag, you’re a mensch for going to all that trouble. Honestly.

Who knew you could concentrate Dio’s bullshit down THAT much and still end up with a SHITLOAD of bullshit?

Bearflag needs an award or sumptin.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Notorious_Nik

Obviously they were less attentive. They forgot a human being was in the car with them, and allowed them to slowly cook to death.

Here’s our disconnect: you don’t speak the goddamned language. Look at the phrases I bolded in the bit you quoted, and try again.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

What does reading the article have to do with whether people in this hread are excusing the parents?

Read it and find out. Seriously. There’s something you’re missing here, and reading the article–whether you agree or disagree with the neuroscientists quoted therein–will help you see what you’re missing.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

It’ll never happen to me either. Try as I might to leave my sons in the car on purpose on 100 degree days to finally and utterly silence their incessant yapping, they insist on untying themselves, ripping the duct tape off their mouths, unlocking the doors and following me into the store.

Its the darndest thing.

[Notorious_Nik]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Here’s our disconnect: you don’t speak the goddamned language. Look at the phrases I bolded in the bit you quoted, and try again.

You don’t like my response? Too fucking bad. I get it, okay? They’re human, I’m human, humans make mistakes. None of my mistakes have ever killed my kid.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Notorious_Nik

You don’t like my response? Too fucking bad. I get it, okay? They’re human, I’m human, humans make mistakes. None of my mistakes have ever killed my kid.

Note the past tense. Before their one mistake that killed a kid, they would have said the same thing you said. So how are we to determine whether you are one of them, pre-kid-killing-mistake, or one of the other folks who never will have a kid-killing mistake? That’s the question.