In this GD thread I’ve gotten into some trouble with tomndebb regarding an exchange with ElvisL1ves.
Rather than continue to muddy the waters in that interesting thread, I’ve decided to open this pit thread to explain myself here. (Against my better judgment!)
On page one of the thread I was debating Left Hand of Dorkness, Kimstu, This Year’s Model, yojimbo, SentientMeat and some others about the constitution ratification in Iraq.
I made a statement that “Regardless, any form of democratic government would be preferable to the whims of an evil dictator that they had before.”
To which ElvisL1ves responded that:
I read this statement by ElvisL1ves to factually state that the new Iraqi constitution that we are discussing creates the following:
- creating an oppressive theocracy like Iran,
- combined with legalized retribution against the Sunnis
- and provision for Kurdistan’s secession.
I doubted all three of these statements, but specifically had questions about #2, so I asked for a cite.
To which Elvis responded:
I then replied that “So, when you said that the constitution creates legalized retribution against the Sunnis you were lying? OK. Good to know.”
Maybe I was being a bit snarky here, and for that I apologize. Perhaps I was overly aggressive with an accusation of lying at this point. However, it does seem clear to me that Elvis made a factual claim that has no truth to it, and cannot back it up with a cite. He should be called out in GD for doing this, and if he refuses to back down this does constitute a “lie” IMO.
A bit later on in the thread tomndebb dons his mod hat and scolds the both of us:
I know I should just let this go, and that nothing will result from this pit thread but a pile on. But, this just bugs me enough that I feel I have to respond.
You’re wrong, tomndebb. I’m not being deliberately belligerent. The initial statement by ElvisL1ves is not couched as a hypothetical at all. He says “That’s what this constitution creates.” It’s a statement of fact, not a hypothetical. It’s also not a matter of opinion, IMO.
The constitution either does the three things he claims it does or it does not. If it does do those three things he should be able to point to where in the text he is referring to. (I provided a link to it in the thread.)
It was also I, not Elvis that is guilty of rising to the bait to quickly. I resent the implication that I’m the troublemaker and that Elvis is simply guilty of responding to me. I was trying to be as civil as possible with the other half dozen or so posters in that thread with whom I disagree.
Elvis is widely recognized as a difficult personality who makes his own side look bad by sinking into the muck in any thread he enters. He’s been often pitted by his own side of the political debaters because he’s an embarrassment to them. It’s me who’s risen to his bait, if anything. Not the other way around.
Here is a thread on Social Security from a while back where the shoe was on the other foot:
Elvis doesn’t seem to have any problems hurling the “liar, liar, pants on fire” accusations at me, simply for having an opinion that is different from his own.
Here is another thread where he goes even farther:
In this case, Elvis sets up a strawman of my argument, and then calls me a liar for it! I’m a liar for something that I didn’t even say. :rolleyes:
In neither of these situations was Elvis talked to by the mods. Both times, he’s clearly way out of line calling me a liar when I have not lied about anything.
I’m not suggesting bias on the part of tomndebb. I just think that he’s wrong in this case.