Discussing mid east politics sucks here

The BBQ Pit
1

I admit i am only a beginner-novice in my knowledge of mid east issues, but i discuss things so i can learn about them. This environment does not contribute to that.
In this post

and then this crap.

This thread is just a rant i guess. I did not invent the term ‘islamic fascism’, i got it from reading articles by Daniel Pipes, an international expert on mid east studies with many radio & tv appearances, author of 11 books, 100’s of essays and has been appointed by the president to work with terrorism, peace and the middle east. It really bothers me that i quoted Daniel Pipes by referring to ‘islamic fascism’ and was dismissed out of hand as a liar and moron for it. For me, calling me a moron for disagreeing with collunsbury was indirectly calling Daniel Pipes a moron for disagreeing with Collunsbury, which i take offense to. I don’t know if i am the only one who sees it that way though. I did not wake up one morning and say ‘islam = fascism’ i got the idea from reading Pipes and to have the idea dismissed out of hand really makes me question the credibility of the arguments here. Its like if i were interested in medicine, and while talking to people i quoted a distinguised journal only to be called a ‘idiot’ by the resident expert and one of his cronies. Not only does the assholishness & arrogance of such remarks make learning and discussing issues harder, but the arrogance makes you question if this is the place to discuss those issues.

Now to sit back and wait for Collunsubury’s clique of starry eyed syncophants to bitch about this. I probably won’t even read the replies because of that fact, i’m just here to bitch & moan and admit that i will probably take my mid east discussions somewhere else, thank you. I am just very disappointed that people are so fucking arrogant here that they are willing to dismiss ideas put forth by international experts because the resident self appointed god/bank teller doesn’t agree with them.

Again, my main concern is that by calling me a moron & liar for referring to Islamic fascism, people are indirectly calling Daniel pipes a liar and moron. I admit upfront people like Collunsbury know much much more about the mid east, islam & terrorism than i do and ever will. But Daniel Pipes, unlike anyone here, is truly a respected expert which really saps the validity out of the discussions here to have his words, written by me, dismissed out of hand.

and rjung, you syncophantic jackass, Zmag is a notorious leftist site and Abid Ullah Jan is a very biased author, much more biased than Pipes. Here are some of his articles. Although he did make 1 comment that had substance in your article. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You are not worth addressing as a respectable person.

Sorry if i’ve offended :smiley:

2

I’d never call you a moron or a liar, and I’ve never read Daniel Pipes, so I can’t comment on him, but I would be interested in hearing why he uses the term “Islamic fascism”, because fascism suggests a certain political idology I don’t think the Islamist groups share. I think a lot of people tend to use “fascist” overgenerally, to refer to any dictatorial or repressive regime.

3

Why is calling Islam fascism, such a stretch for some? If it walks like a duck…

We know this to be a generalization, of course. Like calling a protestant a conservative. Not true in all cases.

I don`t see why someone would get all riled up over something that is so obviously true or at least a very close call.

From Dictionary.com;

Fascism;
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
Oppressive, dictatorial control.

fas·cistic (f-shstk) adj.
Word History: It is fitting that the name of an authoritarian political movement like Fascism, founded in 1919 by Benito Mussolini, should come from the name of a symbol of authority. The Italian name of the movement, fascismo, is derived from fascio, “bundle, (political) group,” but also refers to the movement’s emblem, the fasces, a bundle of rods bound around a projecting axe-head that was carried before an ancient Roman magistrate by an attendant as a symbol of authority and power. The name of Mussolini’s group of revolutionaries was soon used for similar nationalistic movements in other countries that sought to gain power through violence and ruthlessness, such as National Socialism.

Tell me that todays Islamic societies are not influenced by terror, dictactors, violence, etc. All the symptoms of fascism.

COL There is really no reason for you to take what the others have said to heart. During these times theres lots of shit slinging going on. Emotions run high on both sides and some neglect to reflect on the arguements of the other side because they themselves are so caught up in their emotions. The gray area has shrunk, it seems, and more people are either right or wrong when it comes to these types of debates. Dont take it so personally.
whuck

4

Don’t take it personally, Calculus, because apparently Collounsbury really does think Daniel Pipes is a “liar and a moron,” or at least words to that effect. From this thread:

He goes further into his reasons why he dislikes Pipes in that thread, although I’m sure he’d be willing to outline them again for you here if you asked nicely.

5

Wow, Muslims are Fascist. Hmmmmm, this may be a surprize to all the Muslims who didn’t get that memo.

<update>
To update Islam now equals Fascism, Nazism, and Puppy Drowningism.

Brought to you be your local “Islam watch”! dun dun daaaaaah
Keeping those raging Jihadists away from you sine 2001.
</update>

6

I haven’t read Pipes, so I don’t know the answer to this question. Does he equate all of Islam with fascism? Or does he identify a particular group or sect of Islam as “Islamic fascists?”

If the former, then he pretty much is an idiot, or at least an ideologue. The majority of the Islamic faith cannot be classified as “fascist.”

If it’s the latter, then I might not have a problem with it, depending on how he defines the group he’s talking about. There are very likely aspects of Islamic culture that could be considered “fascist” in nature, just as there are aspects of WASP culture that could be considered the same. However, Pipes should be careful to define those elements carefully, and not overstate his case. These would be extreme elements of Islam, not representative of the group as a whole.

I guess it depends on the size of the brush Pipes is using… perhaps Daniel Pipes is a liar and a moron. I have no hesitation in using such words about Ann Coulter, for example, because she has proven that she can be both, because she paints with the widest brush possible. If Pipes does the same, then perhaps calling him a liar isn’t so far off?

But as I say, I haven’t read him directly, so I can’t say for sure…

whuckfistle: There are significant portions of American culture that are also “influenced by terror, dictactors, violence, etc.” Some of them are in leadership positions of our government. Would you call them “fascist” as well?

7

I’ve read a fair bit of Pipes ( well, about a dozen articles, anyway, give or take a couple ). I don’t think he is a moron ( I’ll table the question of whether he is a liar, as I’m unsure ). But I do think he is an ideloogue and polemicist who tends to make overbroad statements. That little bit of hyperbole about “Islamism=Fascism” ( NOT Islam, whuckfistle - not even Pipes makes that claim ), being an excellent case in point. As Captain Amazing points out, there is no equanimity among Islamist groups that justifies such a label.

Now what you could say is that many strains of Islamism have some fascistic tendencies, of one sort or another. But that’s an entirely different statement. The current majority government in Turkey is Islamist and even accounting for the numerous constraints placed on them by the Turkish political system, their platform doesn’t seem to advocate much which could be considered fascistic.

Pipes has an informed view - He can supposedly read Arabic and he has studied the region. But that hardly makes him the final authority, anymore than Collounsbury is. I disagree with academics with a ton more professional expertise than me all the time - I was just commenting to someone the other day about a flaw I perceived in one of John Keegan’s books on warfare and Keegan’s forgotten more about that subject than I’ll ever know. Doesn’t mean he was right in that instance, though.

Also one should note that while Pipes is very much a respected expert in some corners, he’s rather disrespected in others - Certainly his assorted archnemeses in Colombia University’s Middle East Institute don’t have a lot of kind words for him ;).

  • Tamerlane
8

Well, let’s take that definition of fascism step by step:

A system of government

Oh, well, it was nice while it lasted. Islam is a religion, not a system of government. However, just for those who insist that an Islamic nation like Iran is fascist, I’ll continue…

marked by centralization of authority under a dictator

I’ll give you a freebie here. Although Iran, the most cleric-dominated nation in the MENA, has an elected government, I’ll stipulate that the elected government is a sham, and that the real power is in the hands of the ayatollah. The other vociferously Islamic nations are monarchies. The dictators in MENA tend to be relatively quiet about religion.

stringent socioeconomic controls

We’re talking about maintaining the status quo, here. The class system, the distribution of wealth, and control of the means of production all remain in the hands of a loyal, but non-governmental, elite. I’m pretty sure that both Persians and Arabs have a healthy respect for business, but most of the money in the MENA passes through the government - that’s socialist, not fascist.

suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship

I’ll stipulate this, too.

and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Here’s where the argument really runs off the rails. Fascism, as a political doctrine, is inherently nationalist; “One people, one state, one leader.” Islam’s unifying principles are more like “One God, one prophet, one law.” (no, they don’t say that, I made it up). Political organization it ain’t.

9

Indonesia. Republic. Has a president.

10

However, if you had read Pipes critically, either he should have been able to provide reasons why he equated Islamist states with Fascism or you should have been able to recognize by what he did say about them that his use of the word was mere rhetoric and not based in fact.

Beyond the definitions already provided, Fascism has always included an appeal to the “people” of the nation to identify strongly with it–usually in terms of ethnic identity (Nazi “Aryans”, Italian “heirs of Rome,” etc.) Where is this true among any Islamist state? The earlier attempts to estblish a “pan-Arab” nation have already faltered yeras ago. The various ethnic groups that inhabit the Islamist nations, today, simply do not share the necessary allegiance to some purported heritage as a people. (There are appeals to the heritage of Islam, but that has its own divisions.)

The controls of capital and industry that are associated with fascism should also have been laid out by Dr. Pipes so that they can be examined; I have certainly never seen him lay out the parallels.

Iraq took a stab at creating a culture of the leader/der Fuhrer/il Duce/el Caudillo, but Iraq fails on the points of national identity and economy. I am not aware of any other Islamist state that has established a corresponding leader cult. One more failure on comparison to fascism.

The issue is not that you borrowed the language of Pipes, it is that you uncritically repeated his slurs without recognizing that they were little more than name-calling, since his use of the word is not supported by the facts. Col’s only direct statement to you on the issue was to point out that the name-calling (that, it appears, you borrowed from Pipes) was not enlightening, but, rather obscured fruitful discussion.

11

So you used an idiotic term (‘islamic fascism’), got your post ripped apart, and now decide to post a whining pit rant of the “i’m not playing here anymore, you people are mean” variety.

Oh, that’s you’re good.

Tell you what, rather than whining about cliques and sycophants, and how they’re all wrong cos your expert says so, why don’t you pop back into the GD thread and show them where they’re wrong?

12

Relevance? Indonesia is hardly a ‘virulent’ Islamic state, really the contrary in re the gov’t.

Pakistan, however might sometimes fit the bill.

13

Actually, Indonesia comparison with what many consider the Islamic MENA region presents an interesting conundrum. (Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world, with the largest Muslim concentration anywhere – of a country, not a region, of course.) The religion did start as an Islamic Sultanate (through marriage), though transformed over the centuries, and shot out rather suddenly and violently (as many nations did) post-colonization, into a reluctantly democratic (and initially authoritarian) country, eventually becoming a post-modern Islamic state. Only very recently (and perhaps for some time to come, as many believe) has it been “virulently” revolutionised into an Islamic Republic; not that it hasn’t actively been struggling to be for some time, but in the broad scope of history its real actualization is relatively new; and completely different from anything in the MENA region.

(Oddly, I think most Americans and Europeans, and probably most Muslims even in MENA, have little knowledge of Indonesia, historically and presently. This isn’t particularly surprising for the West, but I wonder about the solidarity of Islam – no, not the bullshit NoI – but the actual comradery of the religion. It seems, though connected by the true Islam, to be a fractured understanding, to say the least, and a rather underdeveloped exchange of ideas, commerce, political thought, etc.)

Which I suppose brings me to my questions:

[list=a]Is Indonesia a “good” model for a post-modern, Bush admin.-acceptable Islamic state (now, as it functions, not the difficult process which brought it to today)?

How, in fact, does it differ from MENA? Esp. African countries post-colonization. (And what lessons can be learned from both sides?)

What connection, if any, should be developed as countries (Islamic) which desire to nuture a pro-Western standpoint struggle with natural biases (from both sides), yet need, in this day and age, to create a mutually acceptable proliferation? (The worst thing in the world, which unfortunately is not entirely unconceivable, is that we - mid twenty-first century - have a war of religion which polarizes and enflames two ironically similar theocracies.)

Which I guess leads me to the most important question, How is it practically (and pragmatically and politically and socially and commercially) possible for these very (stereotypically) adverse viewpoints to coexist in our not-to-distant future?

And finally, Is there a bizarro-Collounsbury living on another planet who knows little but is incredibly, almost annoyingly, polite?[ul]
[/ul]

14

Interesting points, I’d prefer to attack them in my GD thread. But on one item:

I believe you refer to my photo-negative, Mr. Final Month.

A note for Tamerlane, although I hope to get to this, for your own reading pleasure, see Pipes comments on Keppel and Olivier Roy and above all his characterization of Roy. I believe it fits the bill of dishonest.

15

No-one said that “Muslims are facists”. The idea that I was trying to convey was that countries where Islam has a heavy influence tend to be run by facists. That seems to be the Standard Operating Procedure for an unusually high percentage of Muslim societies. Simple to understand. I would like to have someone prove me wrong or at least soften me on this issue, cause Im willing to listen. I am not attacking Muslims or the Islam faith, I am just making an observation based on what I see.

I have always, since Ive started here at the SDMB, been flexible in my debates. I am always willing to listen to others with more knowledge than me (insert joke here). I then use common sense and and my brain to come to a conclusion. I wish others could do the same, without fear of being labeled as wishy-washy or back pedelars. Seems to me that once someone takes a stand on an issue, they never back down gracefully. I also realize that just because someone's been published or can support a web site doesnt make them the end-all of knowledge.

16

Certainly, if that were true, especially if they represented the majority or controlled the majority.

17

Well let us try to quantify that, since I grow fucking tired of seeing these lazy fucking generalizations thrown about.

What then is your sample, upon what are you basing the generalization?

18

Well, since you have equated Islam with facism, it really wouldn’t be a stretch to say you are claiming Muslims to be Facists as well (seeing as they are followers of Islam, and all that). It’s hard not to take this as an attack.

19

Relevance of my example of Indonesia? Why, it’s a rather large, predominantly Muslim state. I did ignore the word “virulent” because I see that word as, well, tacky in this context. Perhaps a better word would’ve been “predominantly” or “actively.”

20

In the linked thread, the OP posted this gem

an Islamic state is not necessarily equivalent to being a fascist state, or even an authoritarian one.

A. There are widely differing schools of Islamic legal interpretation whose influence would form different political institutions.

B. Islam dictates the minutiae of daily life but largely steers clear of dictating forms of government.

C. In the days of the Prophet, the nascent Islamic state in Medina seems to have been largely a council of equals under the leadership of Mohammed. Certainly, there is no bar in Islamic tradition or law to an Islamic state being a democracy.