They’re the same folks - part of the same organization, under the same command. If they were terrorists on October 7, they’re terrorists now; if they’re Gazan soldiers now, they were Gazan soldiers on October 7. So which are they?
They were Gazan soldiers. Terrorist is a propaganda term.
Let me pose a question - do the Palestinians as a group have the right to defend themselves?
In your view, are are all Jewish babies and children legitimate military targets, or only Israeli Jewish babies and children?
No more so than Palestinian women and children.
So this war right now, it’s between Israel and and the Palestinians - not between Israel and a terrorist organization in Gaza. Good. We agree.
Sure, as does Israel. Let’s see who does it better.
That wasn’t the question. You said the Hamas attackers who purposefully targeted women, children, and babies for kidnapping, rape, and death, are “Gazan soldiers”, not terrorists. Soldiers attack legitimate military targets. Once again, do you believe all Jewish babies and children are legitimate military targets, or only Israeli Jewish babies and children?
I answered the post.
Is this your position, @Alessan, that Israel is at war with all Palestinians, rather than at war with Hamas?
Good point. The problem is the participants have different definitions of victory. It will be difficult to compare the results.
Israel has been at war with the Palestinians since 1947. What’s happening now is just the next phase.
But who? There’s no Palestinian state, or real government. Are you at war with the entire ethnic group?
EDIT: It’s troubling to hear this from you. If this is mainstream Israeli opinion, then it makes me think Israel has pretty much zero chance of real security (which would require peace) for the next few decades, if not longer.
I’m reminded of a quote from a WW2 memoir (Paul Fussell?). Parphrased from memory “Our leaders told us our fight was with the Nazis, not with the German people. But the whole time we were fighting, except for a brief period when we engaged with a waffen SS unit, I never saw a single Nazi. All the people I was shooting at were ordinary Germans.” I suppose you could reply that at least they were soldiers, but the people in Dresden and Hamburg weren’t.
Total war is a thing and has been since at least the Napoleanic times. Nations go to war. Everyone is involved.
“Never saw a single Nazi”. How could one identify a Nazi by looking at him, or a Democrat or Republican for that matter?
The government was real enough to launch a terroristic invasion of Israel. It seems straightforward to me to say that while Hamas is the governing power in Palestine (here meaning Gaza), then Israel is at war with Palestine. Just as when the Nazis ruled Germany, the Allies were at war with Germany. You can only fight a war against reality, not against wishful thinking that an evil regime is not in control.
When Hamas is removed from power, and Gaza becomes occupied territory controlled (at least temporarily) by Israeli forces, then of course the situation is completely different. But fighting this war is the only way to get from here to there.
I don’t recall reading that in any Paul Fussell, but do remember it from Bill Mauldin’s Up Front.
For me, this cartoon always sumed up what war does to people
What did you think was going on here? It’s an ethnic conflict, like so many others around the world. I don’t know how else to define it.
But Palestine isn’t Gaza. Gaza is Gaza. Palestine (or the Palestinian territories – which isn’t a state entity) consists of Gaza + the West Bank. Is Israel at war with the WB? Just with Gaza (or Gazans as a whole)? I would hope that Israel is at war with Hamas, but NOT with Gazans as a whole. If they’re just at war with Hamas, then hopefully they can defeat Hamas and then withdraw, and allow the Gazans some say in determining their future. If they’re at war with the entirety of the people of Gaza, then that seems like a war that will last forever.
Then ISTM that Oct 7th was just more of the same – the normal course of business. And will be going forward, again and again and again. ISTM that, if you don’t want to see Oct 7th again and again and again, Israeli policy will need a significant paradigm shift.
It’s popularity is likely to increase 10 fold. Thousands of families now have a personal stake in the game because Israel has torn from them loved ones, property, life style, home, even a place to ‘be’. They will have nothing left in them but a burning dedication to the destruction of Israel.
I dunno. Someone might say that attacking Israel ain’t doing a whole lot for anyone. It’d be good to find that person.