In videos of tunnels, are those insects flying about?
“I am le tired” is a shitty excuse for killing unarmed innocents.
… it’s almost too obvious to restate it here, but a ceasefire will mean innocent Palestinian civilians will stop getting killed by indiscriminate bombing. It will allow the health system to start to recover. Maybe even get some hospital reopened. A ceasefire would allow scope to get more aid, food, water, fuel, medical supplies, to the people that desperately need it. A ceasefire is being called for by every single humanitarian agency on the ground because the consequences of allowing this war to continue as is will end up with hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians dead.
It’s almost too obvious to state, but it would also allow Hamas to rearm and reentrench, meaning that when the ceasefire ends we will have to go through all this again just to get to where we are now, before continuing on to the war’s conclusion.
I get why Hamas wants to drag on the war on for as long as possible; I don’t get why people who claim to want what’s best for Palestinians want that.
The only way this stops is when Hamas is permenantly defeated. A ceasefire is a great way of preventing that from happening.
How will we know what that has happened? What is your metric for success?
When its leaders and the masterminds of 10/7 are dead or in prison, and Hamas no longer has military control over any part of Gaza.
…at the cost of hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinian lives. Thats the calculus that Israel have made. They’ve decided to wage this war in the cruellest, most indiscriminate way. Starving millions of people. Driving them out of their homes…then destroying those homes. Depriving them of medical care. Forcing them to live in overcrowded unsanitary camps. Telling them to evacuate areas, then immediately bombing the places they evacuated too.
You don’t get why people want this to stop?
(Spoiled for graphic video from today of why people want this to stop.)
Scenes like this are happening hundreds of times every single day all over Gaza. A relentless cycle of buildings being flattened, of people being dug out by hand.
So when no one is left in Gaza who might support Hamas.
Are we sure this isn’t an ethnic cleansing? It sure sounds like one and destroying hospitals is right out of Milosevic’s playbook, right down to claiming the “terrorrists” are hiding in them.
Also, haven’t more Palestinian civilians been killed now than were killed in the Hamas attack?
If it were, it’d be over by now.
There were still Nazis left after WWII, you know.
More Japanese died in WWII than the civilians killed at Pearl Harbor. More southerners died in thr Civil War than northerners at the battle of Fort Sumter. More Frenchmen died in the War of Jacobs’ Ear than Jacobs lost ears. What’s your point? You don’t win wars by scoring more points and then calling it a day.
The Bosnian ethnic cleansing campaign lasted three years.
…from UNICEF, today:
This war has so far caused 9000 child amputees.
My point is that if the slaughter of civilians in Israel is bad, then the slaughter of more civilians in Gaza is worse. To view it in any other light is to tacitly admit that a person does not view Palestinians as fully human, by virtue of their skin color, religion, or some other hateful metric. If a dead Israeli child matters to a poster, but not a dead Palestinian child,I would urge that poster to evaluate what it is they are supporting.
This continued waving of the bloody shirt is the rhetorical equivalent of pro-lifers driving around trucks with posters of aborted fetuses on them. Visceral disgust at the consequences of war is not a valid argument that a war is unjust.
Israel is at war in order to protect the people of Israel.
Hamas is at war to kill Jews.
Different motivations make a difference when assessing the morality of military action.
I must have answered this exact question at least a dozen times in this thread by now, but maybe 13th time will be the charm.
Success requires two separate elements. In the first stage, Hamas must lose their ability to exercise control over the Gaza strip. This is done by killing their leaders and troops, destroying their equipment and facilities, and otherwise wrecking their ability to operate.
Right now, the IDF has control over parts of Gaza, but not other parts. This stage will be complete when IDF control extends over the entire strip.
The second stage involves ensuring that Hamas is permanently defeated by ensuring that someone else controls the Gaza strip, displacing Hamas and preventing it from returning.
I don’t think either stage is at all ambiguous in what the criteria for success are.
So you view Hamas as mindless Jew killing machines who have no objective, but the killing of Jews and that you are ok with slaughtering thousands of children to get at them.
I think I’ve heard all I ever need to hear from you. Thank you.
…except Palestinian children aren’t the equivalent, in any way, to aborted fetuses. The comparison here just boggles my mind.
Palestinian children, unlike aborted fetuses, are human beings. The comparison between the two is morally repugnant.
If this war goes on another six months, we will be looking at anywhere between 20 and 50 thousand child amputees. Many of them orphans. The consequences and the burden of this will be felt for generations. Re-constructive surgery, rehabilitation, in a healthcare system that has been destroyed…you can’t just look at this figure in isolation.
Where did he say they’re mindless?
Don’t take my word for it.
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
[Quote=The Hamas Charter]
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)…
…Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah’s victory is realised…
The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine…
“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes…
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up…
[/quote]
But do go on and tell me about how misunderstood and innocent the poor downtrodden jihadists are.
They’re definitely not mindless nor machines, but their main objective certainly appears to be the wholesale slaughter of Jews.
How do you view Hamas, I wonder?
I never said they were. I said that by waving around disturbing-looking images and statistics, you’re engaged in the same kind of fallacious reasoning pro-lifers are - “This looks gross, therefore it is wrong”.