Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023

According to this from the Times of Israel they were: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Yes they do. Netanyahu and his right-wing allies similarly should be removed from power. They are also enemies of peace in the region.

And that’s the point of the operation in Gaza. Using up old munitions and showing off new electronic products makes the $$$$ flow. That and propaganda keeps Netanyahu in power.

Good news on that front - the judicial reform is officially dead.

More on how Netanyahu and his allies helped Hamas stay in power:

This NYT article has details on ID F Oct 7 failures. In particular the number of breaks in the border fence and the attack on the IDF base at Re’im.

Lack of a workable strategy combined with inappropriate tactics and confused command structure now have the IDF stalled out. Sending members of an elite workforce into Gaza as cannon fodder was unproductive. IDF goals of recovering hostages and eliminating Hamas have failed.

The best option now is to play the propaganda card. Agree to a cease fire and label any increased flow of Gaza aid as a massive Israeli humanitarian effort. And, make whatever prisoner release is required for the return of, and accounting for, all hostages. Declare victory and leave the field of battle. It can only get worse.

Since IDF operations are ongoing, I have no idea how you can possibly declare that they’ve failed.

Meanwhile, in reality, the IDF continues to make significant gains:

The IDF has a presence in the blue areas. It has not eliminated Hamas or destroyed its ability to wage war. The Civilian population is returning to those areas, Hamas with them. And the only hostages returned were under a cease fire not as a result of any rescue effort by the IDF.

Israel has far exceeded Hamas in barbarity and cruelty. The Oct 7 card has been played. Netanyahu has strengthened his position. Biden’s IDF support may require that he step down as a presidential candidate. The Israeli economy will take a severe hit. Hamas leadership in Qatar is unaffected. Hamas is still launching rockets into Tel Aviv. Hamas is winning.

Hamas said they will not come to the table unless Israel withdraws unconditionally. Then the IDF pounded them a bit and they changed their mind.

Your analysis is completely disconnected from reality, as exemplified by this point. No, he most certainly has not.

Oh…Who’s in charge? All he has to do is incrementally keep it that way.

You said:

Now you say, “he hasn’t been removed yet”.

My neck hurts from twisting my neck fast enough to follow those goal posts.

Saleh Arouri, top Hamas official, killed by IDF:

My favorite line, from the WaPo’s story:

Oh hell no. Accuse IDF of carrying out “cowardly airstrikes against hospitals,” and you might have a point. But specifically targeting Hamas leaders? Let’s please see more of this, and let’s please everyone encourage this! That’s what IDF needs to be focusing on!

Also protip: if you’re helping coordinate mass murder of children, your calling other people “cowardly” just doesn’t pack a punch.

Indeed…I believe his position today is more secure than it was on Oct 6. I consider that strengthened. Whether or not his position s strong is another issue. He’s a well entrenched skillful politician.

This is almost certainly untrue.

Bibi is trying his damnedest to stay in power, as he always has; and he’s cynically manipulating the Israel-Palestine conflict for his own purposes, as he always has; and he’s willing to let a lot of people die and suffer horrifically if he sees political benefit in it, as he always has. And everyone else needs to be casting a super jaundiced eye on his actions because of his appalling cynicism. And he’s been too successful at shoring up political power by waving the bloody shirt.

But he’s nowhere near as strong as he was on October 6.

Agreed, and by wagging the dog in Gaza he’s bought himself some time.

The thing about “top officials”, especially in terrorist groups, is that there’s always more and it never seems to make a difference. How many “Al Qaeda number two” officials did the US kill over twenty years with no apparent effect?

Ridiculous.

Oh man, I missed this earlier. Yeah, that’s the most ridiculous part of the post. Why on Earth would Biden step down as presidential candidate?

…the war on hospitals continues. This one killed five people, including an infant, and has resulted in many people abandoning the hospital, fearful of what has happened at other hospitals in Gaza happening there.

From Tedros:

I’m not sure how you’re getting “no apparent effect.” Leaders aren’t fungible. They have connections, experience, and institutional knowledge. Al Qaeda didn’t manage a whole lot of effective attacks on the United States over the last two decades, did they?

There’s a shit-ton to criticize about the US’s war on terror, but the specific targeting of top officials is about the least bad part of that endeavor.