Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023

You’re citing the author of the Torture Memos as an authority on what’s permissible under IHL? The guy whose work was openly repudiated by the later government of his own country? The guy many people have tried to get properly tried for war crimes himself? That’s the guy you want to cite?

And the ICRC cite is about whether actions by terrorists and against terrorists are covered by IHL. Not actions against civilians, for which there is an entire body of IHL beyond the conventions.

Also, it’s a neat trick - declare your opponents terrorists, then you can do what you want to them… it feels very familiar, somehow.

But always remember to remind people that they’re also the government that people voted for (even though that makes them state actors and hence covered by the conventions, but who cares about consistency?)

So if the IDF is doing the same thing Hamas did…are they a terrorist organization?

Naah, you need to be declared a terrorist by the right people *nudge, nudge, wink, wink".

If you’re Israeli, and you commited what would otherwise be considered acts of terrorism, historically, they give you a medal. Regardless of who you got into bed with on the way.

With that kind of historical consistency, of course whenever a group is called a “terrorist organization” we must believe those doing the calling.

But groups that have their roots in terrorist organizations are, of course, squeaky clean.

yes, and?

I was citing the Univ of Calif Berkeley . So you are attacking the cite- without having a better cite? Do you deny that the Geneva Conventions do not cover terrorists?

I also cited the Red Cross.

And the EU declared Hamas terrorists, I wasnt citing Israel.

Not according the the EU. and not the same thing.

Hamas is internationally recognized as being a Terrorist org.

Yes, the EU.

So, there is no doubt that Hamas is a terrorist org.

…irrelevant.

International Humanitarian Law is quite clear here. There are a very limited set of circumstances where hospitals are allowed to be attacked. Experts in international law have argued that in none of the situations in Gaza has Israel produced any evidence that would satisfy those circumstances.

And even if they did: once the threat had been eliminated they were required to allow the hospital to continue operation, stepping in to assist if need be.

This hasn’t happened.

It’s about as egregious a violation of International Humanitarian Law as you can get. If it was simply one hospital then…maybe. But it’s 23 hospitals. And 3 currently under siege.

“But Hamas” isn’t a defence under International Humanitarian Law.

But the Geneva Conventions and International Law are in place for a reason. They are there to protect combatants in battle, and how they are treated if they are captured by either side.

And they are also there to protect civilians. And that’s the issue here. (Of course, the evidence very strongly suggests that Israel are abusing people that they have detained as well, some may or may not be members of Hamas)

Wow. John Yoo huh?

We were talking about hospitals, and doctors and medical staff aren’t unlawful combatants, and which aren’t terrorist organizations, nor are they harbouring them. The opinion isn’t relevant here.

That’s a creative interpretation of that opinion that is at odds with what the International Red Cross have specifically said about this conflict:

If you can find a quote from them that suggest otherwise, please feel free to quote them.

You attempted to appeal to an authority that lacks any authority to speak.

No. Papers are authored by humans, not institutions. John Yoo is a human.

A terrible human. But nevertheless…

Damn straight

I’ve cited why Yoo is a terrible cite. I’ve also cited previously the actual conventions that cover these situations.

Although a blank Post-It is a better cite than a John Yoo paper, really.

I do so deny. If the “terrorists” are state actors, they are covered by the conventions.

And I pointed out how your cite doesn’t say what you think it says.

Hamas has been on and off the EU list multiple times.

I quite frankly don’t care who Western governments call terrorists or don’t. My own historical experience shows they get it very wrong.

Especially when their most recent assessment can be partly based off Israeli lies about exactly what atrocities have been committed.
.

Does it apply to terrorists?

The Geneva conventions do not apply to terrorists.

And the Red Cross.

It doesnt matter since I also cited the Red cross. And you have no counter cite. Saying a cite is bad without a counter cite is worthless.

They arent -they are terrorists.

I quite frankly don’t care about your personal opinion on this, since the EU, etc have declared them terrorists.

It very much does matter, as he’s the only cite you actually quoted rather than merely linking to. Hence his is the only cited argument you actually posted in that thread.

The Red Cross cite that was specifically about NSAs? That Red Cross cite?

Are Hamas the government of Gaza, or aren’t they?

I’ve already cited the actual conventions. Please point to where they mention “terrorists”.

Cite where the conventions mention “terrorists”, please.

And will you care when the EU again says they’re not?

…thats a particularly complicated question, but not one that is particularly relevant here. Because we are talking about the protections given to hospitals, the people sheltering in them, the doctors and medical staff working in them, the patients that are being treated. And as I said: International Humanitarian Laws is quite clear here. The hospital, the staff, the patients, and those that are seeking shelter: they are all protected except under very specific circumstances.

We are talking about the hospitals, the staff, the patients, and those seeking shelter in the hospital.

I’ve addressed that. Doctors, nurses, paramedics, patients, those seeking shelter: none of those people are terrorists.

I also cited the Red Cross. In case you missed it, here it is again for you:

Is there anything in that statement you disagree with?

I provided a counter cite.

That isn’t how it works.

For example…cite.

For those that don’t want to click: I’ve just provided a link to the Star Trek page on Wikipedia.

If I were to claim that this cite proved that I am correct about the Geneva Conventions, do you really need to provide a counter-cite to claim that my cite is bad, is irrelevant, and doesn’t support my case?

Because thats what it comes down too. Providing a cite doesn’t mean you win the argument. It means you can copy and paste a link. You might even be able to quote an out of context snippet. But you need to argue that the cite is both relevant here, and that it supports your argument.

But you keep talking about terrorists, when I’m talking about hospitals, hospital staff, patients, and those taking shelter. And your cite doesn’t say anything about them.

The patients in the hospital were all terrorists?

Cite please.

No, they are not.

So, you have no counter cite.

https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1311&context=ils
Neither all terrorist activities, nor all counter-terrorist military
operations, even when they have some international dimension, necessarily
constitute armed conflict between states. Terrorist movements themselves
generally have a non-state character. Therefore, military operations between a
state and such a movement, even if they involve the state’s armed forces acting outside its own territory, are not necessarily such as to bring them within the
scope of application of the full range of provisions regarding international
armed conflict in the 1949 Geneva Conventions and the 1977 Geneva
Protocol I.16…In many cases, the attributes and actions of a terrorist movement may not
come within the field of application even of the modest body of rules relating to
non-international armed conflict. Common Article 3 of the 1949 Geneva
Conventions is the core of these rules, but says little about the scope of
application. The principal subsequent agreement on non-international armed
conflict, the 1977 Geneva Protocol II, is based on the assumption that there is
a conflict between a state’s armed forces and organized armed groups which,
under responsible command, exercise control over a part of its territory, and
carry out sustained and concerted military operations. The protocol expressly
does not apply to situations of internal disturbance and tension, such as riots,
and isolated and sporadic acts of violence.17
• Since terrorist forces often have little regard for internationally agreed
rules of restraint, the resolve of the counter-terrorist forces to observe them
may also be weakened, given the low expectation of reciprocity and the
tendency of some part of the public under attack to overlook any breaches by
their own forces.

While application of the international humanitarian law of non-international armed conflict to the War on Terror cannot be ruled out, it is, admittedly,
not an elegant fit. We can dismiss AP II from having any bearing on terrorist acts
or on the War on Terror because its application requires control of the High
Contracting Party’s territory by an organized armed group (Article 1.1). If the state
that is a party to the conflict is not a party to AP II (for example, the United States),
or if the organized armed group controls no territory, then AP II does not apply.
Application of CA 3, on the other hand, does not require territorial control.
What is more, the GCs enjoy virtually universal adherence. Still, humanitarian law
cannot be applied to any situation until the following criteria are addressed…A terrorist group can conceivably be a party to an armed conflict and a subject of humanitarian law, but the lack of commonly accepted definitions is a problem…While application of the international humanitarian law of non-international armed conflict to the War on Terror cannot be ruled out, it is, admittedly,
not an elegant fit. We can dismiss AP II from having any bearing on terrorist acts
or on the War on Terror because its application requires control of the High
Contracting Party’s territory by an organized armed group (Article 1.1). …

It is effective when properly implemented. Its very vitality and relevance
in the War on Terror stems not from any claim that it is capable of encompassing all of the exigencies of terrorism and the efforts to combat it. The strength of
humanitarian law lies, rather, in the fact that it is adequate to deal with such exigencies when they amount to armed conflict. There is little evidence that domestic and international laws and institutions of crime and punishment are not up
to the task when terrorism and the War on Terror do not rise to the level of armed
conflict. But there are powerful reasons to conclude that the application of
humanitarian law in those circumstances would do more harm than good.

So the Red Cross says that indeed terrorists do not fall within the Conventions, but perhaps they should. Maybe.

The protection of hospitals during armed conflicts: What the law says | ICRC.
Therefore, specific protection to which hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used by a party to the conflict to commit, outside their humanitarian functions, an “act harmful to the enemy”. ,When they are used to interfere directly or indirectly in military operations, and thereby cause harm to the enemy, the rationale for their specific protection is removed. This would be the case for example if a hospital is used as a base from which to launch an attack; as an observation post to transmit information of military value; as a weapons depot; as a center for liaison with fighting troops; or as a shelter for able-bodied combatants.

Which is what the IDF claims. So yes, i disagree with your quote as there are exceptions.

The army has claimed that Hamas is operating inside Shifa and underneath it in bunkers, some of which it says are accessible from the hospital itself. It also claims hundreds of Hamas fighters sought shelter at Shifa after the Oct. 7 massacre, in which at least 1,200 people in Israel were killed.

Alleged military use of al-Shifa hospital - Wikipedia.
According to Israeli officials, Hamas subsequently dug out the original basement, later adding new floors and connecting it as a hub within their existing tunnel system.[25][26]

A France24 investigation concluded that the images and videos of the tunnels published by the IDF were consistent with Hamas built tunnels.[27]

Note that you used France24 as a cite yourself.

This is not a response. “they started it” is a meaningless, irrelevant response to an accusation of attempted genocide.

Nothing would justify attempted genocide.

…yes. They have made those claims. I’m not denying that they have.

But those claims have not been supported by the evidence.

Not at Al Shifa.

Now there are twenty-three other hospitals that the IDF have shut down. (Al Shifa is back up and running, but is badly damaged and barely functional)

It isn’t only about Al-Shifa. Al-Shifa was the hospital that made the most grandiose claims about: I mean they even did this!

But those claims didn’t pass muster.

So how about all of the other hospitals?

Nasser Hospital, currently under siege, the last major hospital still relatively functional: why is the IDF targeting them? What evidence have they presented?

Well, thanks for demolishing the “But Palestinians voted for them!” argument, at least.

Are you confused as to who you’re replying to?

Let me ask you this, Doc. Hamas’ leadership, who we all agree are bad, is currently in Qatar. Would you support Israel if they decided to bomb Qatar to get those guys?

Moderating:

This back-and-fourth is unproductive. You have each stated your case, and you have obviously come to different conclusions. The cites are available for other readers.

This applies to you, too:

I thought Qatar had told them it can’t protect them, and most of them have fled?

Qatar and the US are currently in talks to expel them, anyway. Allegedly.

It’s mostly a hypothetical, but I’ll edit the question to say, support bombing of Qatar when Hamas was there.

Or for a different hypothetical, I’ll ask the good doctor if he would have supported Israel is they had sent bombers to Paris and Rome to take out the Black September terrorist after Munich rather than assassin teams?

No one here is denying that Hamas did a bad thing, and needs to be punished. But DrDeth seems to be saying that anything that Israel does in that effort is OK, and any resulting casualties are all Hamas’ fault. I am trying to ascertain if DrDeth thinks that there is no step that Israel could take that would be too far, and would flip the culpability of any resulting civilian casualties to Israel.

Just as a for instance, since we seem to be citing World War II as precedent, during the Pacific Campaign the US chose to bypass certain islands held by the Japanese because capturing them was actually detrimental to the effort to win the war quickly. A choice was made.

If Israel continues to bomb and shell Gaza, even as the return on their investment goes down, doesn’t it at some point become punitive?

And which leaves them in power in Gaza. Which means it would be the same “ceasefire” that existed on October 6, 2023. I’m sure that even you understand why Israel does not consider that proposal an acceptable conclusion to these hostilities.

I didn’t ask the EU, I asked you. Or is your entire position only what other people have stated?