I’m not going to suggest an issue for debate here, because there are just so many that suggest themselves.
People that don’t want to be invaded should probably refrain from mortar attacks and other such, well, acts of war.
Oh crap…America is getting invaded!!!
Bad joke, I know…but it was a easy one and I’m nothing if not easy.
What he said.
I’m really not sure what you want to debate here. That Gaza has become an independent entity? Well, none of its inhabitants are Israeli and its government is entirely Palestinian and rejects the existence of Israel as a matter of foreign policy, so I’d say it’s pretty much a separate, autonomous nation openly hostile to its neighboring nation, Israel.
Do you want to debate the legality/righteousness of the Israeli airstrikes? They’re not particularly new. When a neighboring nation kidnaps a country’s military personnell, pelts it with rockets, and provides government support for terrorists aiming to destroy the country, it seems logical that the country would respond militarily.
To say nothing of the rocket attacks on Israel, and the zillion other threats and aggressive acts. But these all apparently get a pass, because everyone knows it’s all Israel’s fault.
shrugs Count me in the meh crowd. What exactly do you think would be an appropriate response BG? What SHOULD Israel have done or do in this situation? That might be a good place to start an actual debate that we could sink our teeth into here…
Wouldn’t surprise me if this was what Israel expected all along.
Let the Palestinians have Gaza, put up with all the irritation and wait for one big cock-up to take it all back. Maybe I’m just cynical.
Considering the provocation? Nothing whatsoever. Israel blaming the Palestinian government for the capture of Gilad Shalit is like Austria-Hungary blaming Serbia for the actions of Gavrilo Princip.
I don’t think this invasion has anything to do with taking it all back. They may have expected this and hoped the pullout would solidify Gaza as “other” and therefore a safe target.
BrainGlutton, the Hamas operatives that kidnapped Shalit weren’t a fringe group that don’t represent Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist group in and of itself. Those in the government may not be currently performing attacks, but they’ve been continuing to condone and applaud terrorist acts performed by other groups like Islamic Jihad since they were elected. As you can see inthis article, even the Hamas government spokesperson isn’t advocating the release of the prisoner; they’re being touted as moderates for urging those who kidnapped Shalit to “protect his life and treat him well.” A truly moderate government would condemn an attack (one which killed 2 soldiers and wounded 3 as well as resulting in the kidnapping) and demand that its citizens cease terrorist activity and return Shalit to Israel.
An interesting development: Hamas U-turn on Israel’s right to exist
Might makes right!
O… K. Time for a thought experiment.
Canadians (“unallied with the Canadian government,” of course!) have been shelling Buffalo with rockets for a year now.
Canadian government will not put a stop to these attacks.
And now Canadian guerillas (“unallied with the Canadian government,” of course!) have snuck over the St. Lawrence, grabbed a US Border Police Officer, and dragged him back into Canada (but the Canadian government “has no idea where he is,” of course).
There’s a good Latin phrase for this. Casus Belli
But the US would just sit back and do nothing, right? And you agree that would be the best course of action? Right… :rolleyes:
But, but, but… it’s ISRAEL we’re talking about here! They’re never right, and they have to take whatever comes their way and like it becuase it’s always their fault.
Damn, dude, didn’t you know that? :rolleyes:
Are you seriously saying that Israel should do nothing? What recourse do they have? To simply let things go on indefinitely? To suck it up? I ask you a question and you return with…nothing? Interesting BG…
Leaving aside your faulty analogy for a moment, and leaving aside the fact that Hamas controls the government in Palestine these days (the political half, to be sure), the militant half operates from Palestine. They continue to attack Israel. What recourse does Israel have that they haven’t tried yet (and that is within the realm of reality)? What do you suggest?
There’re a couple of little contradiction here.
First, some say that Hamas should be a good neighbour and not fight Israel and not fire rockets. But, after Ariel Sharon started his systematic destruction of the Palestinian Authority, any government formed by any faction became incapable of enforcing its decrees. Thus if some fringe group wanted to attack Israel, the PA has little power to stop it.
Then it is said that Israel is waging a war, and has a right to defend itself. Against who is this war being waged? Hamas and the Palestinians. So, is Hamas supposed to be part of this war or not? Can it not rightfully attack soldiers, take prisoners and demand the release of its own prisoners? (They demanded the release of female and under-age prisoners, actually). What is so wrong about attacking enemy soldiers and taking them prisoner in a war? Capturing them and keeping them alive is a lot better than what Ariel Sharon did in Sinai, no?
I invite future posters to specify whether or not they think
a) Hamas is at war, and so should act accordingly
b) Hamas should be held responsible for all actions taking place over its territory, even though Israel has done its best to incapacitate any Palestinian government.
Now, I do not think Israel should do nothing to rescue this soldier. But I do hope that whatever it does is proportionate to the action taken by the Palestinians. Re-invading Gaza sounds a bit much.
Uh, ever hear of deterrence?
As in “you kill three of our guys, in our territory, and kidnap a fourth?” We will then respond in magnified force, so that the next time one of you or yours even begins to think about repeating the act, the idea is squelched.
As in, “we’re going to make to make each and every hostile act on your part so expensive that you can no longer afford to commit such acts” …
Ever heard of containing a situation rather than escalating?
As I stated in another thread, I’m hardly objective here.
The fact remains that no country on earth is bound to accept targeted attacks against their civilians. Any response Israel initiates other than, as BG suggests, simply laying down for the slaughter, is demonized. No other nation on earth is held to such a standard, not one.
Sorry to hear that Finn, but the point remains that he was a soldier, not a civilian, in a time of war.
Rather than invading Gaza and jeopardising so many lives, innocent and otherwise, I hope that Israel will reach with the Palestinians the sort of accord it reached with the Lebanese Hezbollah in 1996: that both sides refrain from attacking civilians. Soldiers remain a legitimate target, before and after that.
I cannot pray. Still, I sincerely hope that Gilead returns safe. The same goes for Palestinian captives in Israeli jails. They too have families.
Hamas is a terrorist organization which targets civilians. They have no more claim to the right to capture anybody than Al Quaeda would if they started kidnapping US soldiers. Moreoever, I would ask what the ‘women and children’ who are being held have done. Are they to be released simply because they lack Y chromosomes, or they’re under a certain age? Even in the United States, juveniles are imprisoned for violent crimes. It is well known and documented that young children and women are and have been included in terrorist attacks and other forms of violence. I see no reason to release them simply because ‘women and children’ makes good copy.
And no, there is no contradiction to saying that Hamas should not target civilians and fire rockets. It doesn’t matter if Sharon limited the actions fo the terrorist government of Arafat.
Hamas is responsible for its actions. It is also disingenuous to refer to Hamas as a ‘fringe group’.
Israel cannot negotiate with terrorists. It cannot say that every time any terrorist organization wants to get some leverage, all they have to do is kidnap some Israeli civilians or a soldier or two. And as reports have stated, Gilad may very well be wounded. Israel also cannot afford to wait and see what happens while he bleeds.
Israel is not at war with Palestine, nor the Palestinian people. Indeed, there have been increased attempts at cooperation between Israel and Abas. No, Israel is under attack by a terrorist organization whose MO is the targeting of civilians. We should not pretend that this terrorist organization waging a civilian targeted war against Israel is analagous to two nations engaging in armed conflict over military objectives. Israel is no more ‘at war’ with Hamas than America is ‘at war’ with the murderers and rapists who are put in jail every year.