You didn’t think the Allies ended the Holocaust by suing Hitler, did you?
…yeah, but thats not how the International Court of Justice works. There is no “declaring people guilty.” Not at this stage. They’ve made interim provisional measures at this stage, nothing more.
As this has absolutely nothing to do with the ICC, our opinions here don’t really matter.
Its a shame that the tactics and strategies Israel have adopted haven’t targeted Hamas, have instead targeted Palestinian civilians and infrastructure, and we don’t actually really know if they’ve done any damage to Hamas at all.
But this isn’t what war looks like.
This is what a genocide looks like. Targeting hospitals is a warcrime. Forced migration to what is effectively a concentration camp is a warcrime. Using starvation as a weapon is a warcrime. Humiliation, beatings and torture of detainees is a warcrime. Its warcrime after warcrime. Its a slaughter.
It wouldn’t matter. For starters: it doesn’t matter if Hamas surrenders or not. Collective punishment against Palestinian civilians is against the Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian Law.
Secondly: I doubt Israel would stop anyway. There is every indication that they don’t really care about Hamas, they don’t care about the hostages, they will continue this operation until they are finished.
But we really are beyond this talking point. Israel are committing warcrimes on a daily basis. And “but Hamas” doesn’t work any more. What Israel has done over the last 130 odd days overshadows the atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. This will be remembered in the history books as the Gaza Genocide.
It doesn’t work, because international law is a polite fiction, it has no power to enforce its decisions, and, as you’ve already noted, Israel will ignore whatever they decide anyway.
You’re the one who keeps bringing them up as if their opinion meant something, not I.
Hamas deliberately embeds itself in civilian areas because dead Palestinian civilians are useful to them as a propaganda tool. This has been explained a thousand times and you continue to ignore it.
How many Israeli babies has Hamas decapitated since 10/8? Zero, you say? Then the mission is a success thus far.
You’re half-right. Most wars throughout history have had a lot more civilian casualties. The degree to which Israel has restrained itself is quite impressive.
If Israel wanted to commit genocide, the war would have ended by now. It took them less than a week to conquer Gaza 60 years ago, and that was before they had nukes.
War is not a punishment.
False and bordering on libelous.
As it should. Overwheming force is how you win wars. You don’t just kill one of theirs for every one of yours and call it even. You make sure the enemy can never lay a finger on yours again.
Tell me that twenty years from now when the Republic of Gaza has the highest standard of living in the Arab world and its people live free of tyranny thanks to the Israelis that gave their lives to liberate them.
I’m not going to address such a ridiculous fact-free assertion in a non-Pit forum.
…we are talking about the institutions and the power structures that the West have created, the so-called “rules based order.”
That they are failing to hold Israel to account is by design. And while America has been declining in the world as “the beacon of hope” and the “land of the free”, what we’ve witnessed here will only accelerate the decline. America and Canada and the UK and much of Europe and even my own country have decided to stand side-by-side in defence of a nation clearly committing genocide. People will no longer look to America for leadership. Israel will no longer be seen as "the only democracy in the Middle East.
I’ve been talking about the International Court of Justice.
You are talking about the International Criminal Court.
They are two very different things.
Understanding that is kinda crucial to understanding what the interim measures are all about.
I’m sorry, but why would you expect anyone to believe this after everything we’ve seen?
The line “Hamas deliberately embeds itself in civilian areas” is the propaganda. I’ve asked over and over again how many Hamas have been killed since the start of this “war.” And the answer is either :: shrugs shoulders :: or someone points to a ratio that suspiciously almost matches the Hamas Ministry of Health numbers for all military-aged men killed so far in the conflict.
Because as far as Israel is concerned…everybody is Hamas. The leadership have said this over and over again, you can read it in the SA submission to the ICJ. Or you can watch them admit it in the videos I posted today. The quote again from the Channel 14 documentary if you missed it:
“Human animals, nothing less. Most of them of course at first deny any involvement, through certain tools and means, we manage to get the confessions out of them.”
When you can actually prove it I’ll take the talking point seriously.
How many babies did Hamas decapitate on 10/7?
According to all reports, zero.
Hamas did kill 33 children that day. That was horrific, an atrocity, a warcrime.
The IDF have killed an estimated 14,031 children since the start 10/8, including those that are still missing under the rubble. That doesn’t include how many have died of starvation, disease and infection. This is horrific, an atrocity, a warcrime.
No, I’m just right.
We’ve had reports from humanitarian agencies on the ground that have had experience in war zones around the world for decades, and absolutely none of them would agree with the assertion that “the restraint from Israel has been impressive.” All of them agree this is one of the worst warzones they have ever seen. The scale of civilian infrastructure damage is off the scale. The deliberate targeting of journalists and academics, unprecedented. Gaza has been described as a “graveyard for children.”
Outside of Israeli propaganda, there is nothing to support the assertion “the degree to which Israel has restrained itself is quite impressive.”
Again: you don’t seem to understand what genocide means. The SA submission to the ICJ and the decision from the ICJ lays this all out. The Bosnian genocide involved only an estimated 8000 deaths. That didn’t make it any less of a genocide. We’ve already eclipsed that here.
Starving the civilian population to force Hamas to surrender is a punishment, and a warcrime.
What are they going to do: sue me?
Its not a war. Its a genocide.
Because collectively most nations, including Israel, have agreed on a framework on how wars should work. The Geneva Conventions. International Humanitarian Law.
That means you don’t deliberately target civilians. That means you don’t shut down the healthcare system. That means you don’t use starvation as a weapon. That means you don’t use humiliation, beatings and torture on your detainees.
Because it isn’t just about “overwhelming force.” Its about the warcrimes. And if Israel and the United States have declared that warcrimes don’t mean anything, and that they can conduct wars anyway they want, that probably won’t matter much more in this conflict. But it changes the way wars will be waged against Israel and US aligned countries in the future. What Isreal and the US have done here is inherently authoritarian, inherently fascist, they’ve signalled to the world that “the rules-based order” doesn’t apply to them.
The rest of the world will not forget this.
I note that you didn’t use the word “Palestinians” here at all.
And that would be because Israel will kill hundreds of thousands of them before the war is over, drive much of the rest of them over the borders or “forced migrations”, and those that remain won’t be living in “the highest standard in the Arab world”, but will be treated like third-class citizens, regularly arrested and beaten, subject to increased surveillance, living in poverty and ghettos, much as many of them did before October 7th happened.
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Maybe you’d like to put the trite quote in its full context?
Both of 'em together and five bucks will buy you a cup of coffee.
Because of everything we’ve seen.
So Hamas is fighting out of where then, exactly? Tell me where all these Hamasniks who aren’t embedded in the civilian population are and who they’re fighting if not Israel.
War isn’t a video game. There isn’t a score ticker that goes up by one every time a terrorist dies.
“All reports”, you say?
Then Israel is fully justified in destroying them by whatever means necessary.
Hamas is starving the civilian population, not Israel.
And yet noone was prosecuted for Hiroshima. It’s almost as if the rules of war have always been a fiction used by winners to justify doing whatever they want to the losers.
I used “Arab”. Are the Palestinians suddenly no longer Arabs?
So does the IDF.
Exactly the same number as the number they decapitated on 7 October.
The Nazis could just have bombed the Warsaw Ghetto right away, too…
It can be.
If they cared about them, they wouldn’t shoot them while they’re coming back home under a white flag.
The grannies and the babies are “theirs”, how?
You’re advocating collective punishment. Just openly advocating war crimes.
Amazing. You managed to read the exact opposite meaning of the words I typed. I was stating that the purpose of war is not petty vengeance. I may as well have taken your statement that
And said “Oh, you want Nazis to bomb Jews?”
Sure.
Sorry, what “theirs” was the “overwhelming force” supposed to be about, then? Not actual Hamas troops, because as has been shown, Israeli snipers has a piss-poor record at distinguishing those from grannies and 5-year old kids. So one can only assume you were talking about killing Gazan civilians in this show of “overwhelming force”
By pointing to examples of petty vengeance and saying “this is realpolitik”. Yeah, not buying that, thanks.
Note the difference between “could of” and “you don’t just kill[…]you make sure”. One is discussing what might have happened, one is discussing what should happen.
False equivalency.
Expanding the trite quote to a full paragraph is not the full context.
All reliable sources. Like, say, the Israeli government’s own statistics.
One would assume wrongly. “They” is Hamas, not the Palestinian people. Israel’s war is against the former, not the latter.
Special pleading.
It’s the latter they’re killing. So their war is against them too.
It’s better to be citing proven liars like Golan Vach?
Not by design or intent. Those civilians who have died have done so as unfortunate collateral damage and their blood is on Hamas’ hands.
Bullshit.
You don’t snipe a granny under a white flag and say it’s not intentional. You can’t snipe a five year old and say it’s not intentional.
Absolutely not. Sniper fire is not “collateral damage”. Neither is death by starvation and disease.
The IDF’s hands are absolutely bloody in this.
A handful of overzealous snipers does not a genocide make any more than the Vietnam war was a genocide because of Lt. William Calley.
That’s war. Was anyone prosecuted for the wartime famines in Germany and Japan?
It’s complicated, but no.
Like in other “Arabized” Arab nations, the Arab identity of Palestinians, largely based on linguistic and cultural affiliation, is independent of the existence of any actual Arabian origins.
Link
Are Egyptians Arabs? Lebanese? Libyans?
Moving the goalpost from what is and isn’t intentional, noted.
And it’s not a handful. It’s a constant stream of grannies and kids and journalists… every day, more and more.
That’s bullshit.
You mean the ones that happened before we had international law on genocide?
AFAIK the majority of the population in those places consider themselves to be Arab.
For clarity’s sake, allow me to state that in the post that was being referred to I was specifically referring to the Palestinian people as those whose quality of life will be improved in the long run once Israel wins this war.
The Korean War’s been ongoing since then. Has anyone at the United Nations Command been prosecuted for the famine being inflicted on the people of North Korea?
Of course not, because winners don’t get prosecuted for war crimes. If there were a true system of international law capable of dispensing justice, that wouldn’t be the case. War crimes is what the winner calls it when they’ve won the war but want to justify continuing to hurt their enemy.