It doesn’t. Hamas are the ones responsible for Gaza’s state of oppression. Remove the fanatical death cult from power and Israelis and Gazans can find common ground.
I agree it’s a problem. That’s why Hamas should surrender.
I think that’s far too simplistic a take, especially given the fact that Israel’s current leadership has been explicit about its unwavering intention to deny any kind of Palestinian sovereignty anywhere in historic Palestine under any circumstances whatever.
I hold no brief for Hamas or terrorists in general, but the “maybe someday we’ll acknowledge your rights if we decide you’re behaving acceptably” rhetoric on Israel’s part has been wearing thinner and thinner for many decades. With or without terrorists, with or without warlords, Palestinians are entitled to basic human rights and sovereignty in their ancestral homeland.
The longer Israel resists that claim (for Palestinians in all the occupied territories, not just Hamas-controlled parts), the more it looks like the “remove Hamas” precondition is, at least in part, an excuse for Israel to keep kicking the coexistence can down the road while it keeps de facto annexing more and more Palestinian land.
I was unaware Palestinian oppression started in 2006.
…but Gaza is in ruins.
It’s already in ruins.
What does this statement even mean?
It’s either in the process of being flattened…or its been flattened.
Whether or not Hamas is in power or not is besides the point.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
What even are you talking about now?
Israel have killed at least 14,000 children. Not Hamas. Israel.
You don’t seem to understand the scale of the destruction. They are eating grass in the north right now. They are boiling leaves and grass to eat because they were eating animal feed…but all of that has run out.
This is a humanitarian catastrophe. And no amount of “blame Hamas” is going to change that. What is needed right now is for the bombing to stop and an immediate scaling up of humanitarian aid. Hospital ships should be setting up on the coast. Medical teams and field hospitals. Trucks with food,water, fuel, medical supplies, streaming in 24/7.
Those “blinkered pacifists” know the situation on the ground better than you do. Nothing, absolutely nothing, will prevent hundreds of thousands of deaths except an immediate ceasefire and a significant ramping up of humanitarian aid. Hamas or no Hamas, it doesn’t really matter. I couldn’t imagine a less important thing to worry about right now. The priorities are: prevent the famine, restore the healthcare system, then focus on shelter, sanitation, the essentials of life.
Meanwhile, in the real world, “blinkered pacifists” have for decades been marginalised by the institutions, by governments, heck, some states, even the senate tried to ban people from even advocating for a boycott of Israel.
Since October the 7th Palestinians have been taken off-air, have been relieved of their writing duties, have found themselves fired if they dare speak out about this.
These “blinkered pacifists” have always had an uphill battle. And those “blinkered pacifists” aren’t even blinkered, or pacifist. I’ve stated that at the start of the conflict I had reservations, but Israel had a right to go after Hamas. I’m no “blinkered pacifist.” I was a blinkered, quiet supporter of Israels right to defend themselves. I never ever imagined we would end up here. I only started to speak out on this when it became obvious what the tactics and strategy might lead to. But even back then, I was expecting some sort of restraint. That it wouldn’t go this far.
I was wrong.
So should we be thinking of the children?
Fuck yeah.
And you should be, too.
Because Israel aren’t trying to stop Hamas. The tactics and strategy couldn’t be more clear. Drive everyone to the south, destroy the healthcare system, de-legitimize humanitarian aid agencies, flatten and destroy almost all of the civilian infrastructure. Take out the journalists. Take out the academics. Dig up the cemeteries. Raze the fields. Humiliate, beat and torture detainees, forcing confessions.
Then pretend you haven’t done all of these things.
So yes, we really should think of the children. Because that’s what one should expect from humanity.
Yeah…nah. This wasn’t what happened.
Its what Israel claimed that happened. But Israel were literally shooting and killing Palestinian civilians just trying to get home on the first days of the ceasefire. They played silly buggers with the people they released. And they immediately re-arrested people a day or so after the got out.
Don’t play the “good faith” game here. Israel haven’t acted in good faith at all at any time during this conflict. They’ve been caught in lie-after-lie. Everyone knows that Israel won’t hold their end of the bargain. But that doesn’t matter. Because the only way to stop the slaughter is to stop the bombing, followed by an immediate ramp up of humanitarian aid. And that requires a ceasefire, despite what everyone knows Israel will do.
Things will absolutely fucking improve for the people of Gaza with an immediate ceasefire and the ramping up of humanitarian aid. This is a disingenuous argument.
Nope. This is what life was like for Palestinians in Gaza, in the West Bank, in Israel, before October the 7th. And for evidence of that, you just have to read the multiple citations I’ve given to you over the last three months. Slavery. Oppression. Humiliation. Beatings. Torture. Theft of land. Destruction of houses.
This is how Israel have treated Palestinians for decades. Nobody can pretend this isn’t true. And this is the future for any remaining Palestinians in Gaza no matter what happens with Hamas as long as Israel continues to occupy it and the West Bank.
But Hamas But Hamas But Hamas But Hamas But Hamas.
“But Hamas” doesn’t work any more. It’s literally all you’ve got. You’ve got nothing else.
This isn’t a rebuttal.
Because both the submission and the statements from Israeli leadership stand on their own. Whatever your personal opinions are of the International Court of Justice, the statements of genocidal intent still exist. They are words that were said, and the strategy, tactics and the way that the war has been conducted are perfectly congruent with those statements of intent.
I was unaware the West Bank was being bombed and invaded.
None of that is going to be possible if Hamas is in control of where the relief goes.
But South Africa and the ICJ But South Africa and the ICJ But South Africa and the ICJ But South Africa and the ICJ.
“Germany is in ruins. Germany is already in ruins. Whether Hitler is in power or not is besides the point.”
Question, Smapti: what danger would Israel face if they did agree and hold to a ceasefire? If they just changed tactics to reduce civilian involvement and casualties?
I wonder, then, how you would explain why Israel participated in the court hearing (albeit by written statement rather than representation)
…of course it will. Where are you getting this stuff from?
The only reason the hospitals got shut down in the first place was because the IDF surrounded them, placed them under siege, raided them, destroyed essential infrastructure, kicked out those sheltering there, and arrested some of the doctors and medical staff. Hamas didn’t do that. If Hamas were in control, every single hospital would still be in operation.
This is not a defence of Hamas. It’s just what actually happened.
Yeah, the South African submission is a highly detailed, extremely well cited document written by legal experts that is a reputable document that lays out the detailed case that Israel is plausibly committing genocide.
That is, of course, been backed up here in this thread by multiple other links and citations that I had provided before the submission that supported the case as well.
There is a reason why I keep referring to the SA submission. Because all the information is there in one place. I’m not going to dig up a cite when the cites are all right there.
“But Hamas” is just a slogan. It’s a talking point. It’s literally all you have.
I was responding to you post where you said “And then what happens to the Gazans when their country is in ruins and Hamas is still in power?”
Bolding mine.
I’m pointing out to you, in case you hadn’t noticed, that it isn’t a matter of “when.” Gaza is in ruins. It isn’t a hypothetical future event.
I was unaware that bombing and invasion are the only states of oppression inflicted on the Palestinians.
Also, you are unaware of something actually happening:
Because Hamas was using them as bases to launch attacks on Israel no matter how much you deny and pretend they’re a bunch of Boy Scouts who have Gaza’s best interests in mind and would happily start handing out food instead of showing up at the dock heavily armed and saying “Thanks for the grub, our boys in the tunnels really need this, we’ll ll be taking it now”.
Calling for a ceasefire at this point is a defense of Hamas. It gives them time to rearm and reinforce.
And that’s why Israel needs to finish what they’ve started so the rebuilding can begin.
A Hamas that has had a chance to rest, recuperate, and plan their next mass murder.
To counter the propaganda.
I see. That’s very unfortunate. Hopefully it doesn’t escalate further. The West Bank’s government is far far better than Hamas has ever been.
But this implies that Israel do indeed recognise the ICJ.
If they do, why do you not?
Well, we’re being faced with quite a large amount of human suffering and death right now. Surely you understand how some people can be more immediately concerned with that over an unknown and completely hypothetical number of (equally precious) Israeli lives at some indeterminate time in the future?
Didn’t help them avoid the collective punishment.
Hamas controlled the aid before Oct 7, and Gazans weren’t starving then, nor did they all live in tents. Hamas were unquestionably corrupt and took a cut. But they didn’t take it all for tunnel fighters, as you seem to think. Because those grannies being shot while under a white flag were sometimes their moms. And those 5-yos being sniped with headshots were sometimes their kids (or nephews, or neighbours). So Hamas fed them, clothed them, housed them
Even murdering terrorists can care about other people. I’m sure the oh-so brave Israeli kiddie-snipers care about their mothers and kids, too.
…this is really tiring.
But no they were not.
They’ve had four months to make a case for this.
And they haven’t.
You’ve had four months to present evidence of this.
And you can’t.
Because the evidence isn’t there.
There is no need for you to use language like “pretend they’re a bunch of Boy Scouts” because that’s insulting and condescending and doesn’t fairly reflect any of the arguments I’ve made in this thread.
I’ve presented evidence to back up my case. You have not. Israel has not. The hospitals were functioning as hospitals. Israel shut them down.
There is no disputing this. Israel had obligations as the occupying power under the Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian Law, and they ignored those obligations. They intentionally destroyed a functioning healthcare system and have condemned thousands of Palestinians to a slow, painful death.
Israel are effectively in control of Gaza now. Instead of raiding the hospitals and shutting them down, they had the ability to take them over, keep the hospital systems running, provide food, water, electricity and additional medical staff if required. They could have provided secure humanitarian corridors so that the hospitals could be resupplied.
That’s what they could have done. That’s what they should have done. That was their obligation under the Geneva Conventions and Internationals Humanitarian Law. They could have kept Hamas out of the hospitals. This would have limited the impact on the civilian population. It would have signalled their intentions: that civilians aren’t a target. If nothing else, it would have been a propaganda victory. It may even have turned some Palestinians onto their side.
They chose not to do this. So, the destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza? That’s all on Israel.
Calling for a ceasefire is the only way to prevent hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from dying.
Or as the US Ambassador to the UN said today:
The official transcript is here, yes they really said it. I had to check to make sure it wasn’t an AI fake.
Remarks by Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield at the UN Security Council Stakeout Following a Vote on the Situation in the Middle East - United States Mission to the United Nations (usmission.gov)
“Finishing the job” involves cutting the north off completely from any humanitarian aid and allowing them to die slowly. Aid trucks have already not been able to get through for three weeks and now that aid has been suspended, and Israel, the occupying power, not giving a damn, it will be one of the most heinous warcrimes of this century.
And “finishing the job” involves the inevitable attack on what is now largely a city of tents, 1.5 million people squeezed into what is effectively a concentration camp that will be a slaughter.
“Finishing the job” means either driving Palestinians out of Gaza, killing them, or forced re-education, confined to the ghettos, regularly getting beaten and tortured while settlers take over the most fertile of lands.
Things don’t get better for Palestinians if Israel “finishes the job.”
Israel isn’t on a path to destroying Hamas. The Israeli government is fucking up this war and making things worse. I’m not sure why you’re so married to this false narrative that a war being run by extremist idiots is somehow going exactly as it should be.
You say I’m actively ignoring the possibility — in response to a post where I address whether “it’s a rebuttable presumption” before noting that “I’d then need a reason to think they’re mistaken” while mentioning along the way that “I don’t see any reason to conclude that yet.”
That’s, like, the opposite of ignoring the possibility; I’m honestly not sure how much more I could do to express that the presumption is rebuttable, and that I don’t yet have a reason to think they’re mistaken, other than using those words when saying so.
Moderating:
This entire side discussion is becoming a hijack. I think everyone has said their piece and no one is going to change anyone else’s mind on these issues.
Everyone, please move on.
…here’s a video of Al Jazeera reporter Anas Jamal reporting on the food and water in the north.
Hundreds of thousands of people are still trapped in the north. As I mentioned a couple of days ago, after the IDF attacked a convoy of food aid moving to the north a few weeks ago, they temporarily suspended food convoys. And when they attempted to restart it a couple of days ago, the situation had deteriorated so much that they’ve had to suspend convoys again.
So no food will be getting through to the north any time soon. I have to say it again, but this is catastrophic. People, mainly children and the already sick, have already died from starvation. But famine is inevitable.
The death toll from starvation, disease, illness and infection will soon outpace that of the bombing. And the attack on Rafah is still to come.