Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
3715

…from Chris Lockyear, Secretary General of Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders)

When we talk about how the healthcare system has been destroyed, we are talking about stuff like this.

Turkish-Palestinian Friendship Hospital was initially built as a training and research hospital. During Covid it was used for isolation and treatment. After the worst of the pandemic was over, authorities decided to consolidate oncology services and the hospital became the primary hospital for cancer care.

In October the hospital was hit by an IDF bomb, something that Israel of course denied. Then the hospital was forced to shut down when it ran out of fuel.

Today an IDF soldier released the below video on his social media showing him in part demolishing the hospital. In a caption he writes “The hospital accidentally broke.”

The destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza wasn’t an accident. It didn’t target Hamas. It was a deliberate, systematic, decision as part of an overall strategy to make Gaza unliveable. This should have been obvious from the start. But this is where we are now.

3716

You have no way of substantiated this claim.

3717

…I’ve documented the destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza since the start of the thread.

I just posted a video shared on social media of an IDF soldier cheerfully demolishing a hospital with a bulldozer. I’ve shared the statements from Israeli leadership that demonstrate genocidal intent. I’ve just posted a statement from the head of Doctors without Borders that talks about how none of the claims about why the hospitals have been targeted stack up.

I’m entirely confident in my statement. I think I’ve backed it up with sufficient evidence over the last series of months. And I know that you’ve read it, because much of what I’ve posted has been in direct response to things you have said.

So I consider that I have substantiated my claim.

3718

You claimed it was intendional to destroy the healthcare system. You have not substantiated that claim.

3719

…do you think they accidentally destroyed the healthcare system? How was it not intentional?

Let’s start with the Turkish-Palestinian Friendship Hospital that had consolidated and provided all cancer care for Gaza. It was forced to close by the Israeli blockade in November, and it was demolished this week by bulldozers.

Was it demolished by accident? Why didn’t Israel take any steps to rehabilitate the hospital? What is Israel doing in regard to cancer care in Gaza? What do people who need chemotherapy in Gaza do now?

If I’m wrong, and the destruction of the healthcare system was all just a giant mistake, what is Israel doing to fix their mistake?

3720

Hamas.

3721

…Hamas what?

3722

“But, Hamas…”, of course. You know it’s all they’ve got in the face of literal self-documentary evidence of their IDF “heroes” laughing while they genocide.

The Nazis loved to take photos of their activities, too.

Guess the Israelis learned something from the Shoah, even if it wasn’t “genocide is bad, don’t do it”

Never Again (Unless It’s Us Doing It) doesn’t quite roll off the tongue as glibly.

3723

I wonder how much indignation you had when Hamas and local Gazans massacred the Israelis most sympathetic to their plight on October 7th.

It’s also not a genocide, because you would see the same intensity of military action now ushered to the Gazans given to those in the West Bank as well as taking steps to eradicate the entire population before somethingike October 7th even happening.

Considering Hamas initiated this war, they are ultimately responsible for the consequences of the results, and you need to come to the realisation that Palestinians see it more as their version of the reconquista rather than an eventual two state solution.

3724

About as much.
“But, Hamas” is a non-argument for people who agree Hamas are also murdering scum.
(although - “most sympathetic to their plight”? Who was that? The toothless IDF watchdogs on their borders? People at a rave right on the border of their open air prison? Kibbutzniks? )

A slow genocide is still a genocide.

And no, the West Bank was not literally flattened before Oct 7, the way Gaza is now. “Same intensity”, my ass.

Although “taking steps to eradicate the entire population” is a literal admission of genocide in a sentence denying genocide, which is a neat trick…

“But, Hamas!”

No, the people doing the genociding are responsible for their own genocidal actions. We don’t apply the logic of the wife-beater to IHL.

Yes, I’m sure the head-shot five-year olds were real Right of Return idealogues :roll_eyes:

3725

My temple is partnering with another local temple and leading a trip to Israel to show support. I looked at the itinerary. It includes visiting a mixed (Arab/Jewish) couple and talking with some official about how to get to peace. They are also visiting the site of the concert. I’m kinda shocked that that’s accessible to random tourists.

I’ve written a letter to the Rabbi about why i don’t feel i can “stand with Israel” right now. But i haven’t sent it.

3726

A slow genocide is still a genocide.

How long has this purported genocide been taking place? Since the original two state solution in 48 Palestinians rejected? Or when Egypt and Jordan occupied the Gaza and The West Bank? Or when you know where the surrounding Arab states alongside the Palestinians thought they could eradicate the state of Israel so didn’t bother to accept the partition plan?

About as much.
“But, Hamas” is a non-argument for people who agree Hamas are also murdering scum.
(although - “most sympathetic to their plight”? Who was that? The toothless IDF watchdogs on their borders? People at a rave right on the border of their open air prison? Kibbutzniks? )

No, a woman like this,Vivian Silver

These the same people who lob rockets at Israel even after they withdrew from Gaza? The problem is Palestinian irredentism

And no, the West Bank was not literally flattened before Oct 7, the way Gaza is now. “Same intensity”, my ass.

Never said it was? I was saying if Israel had genocidal intent they would have the same ferocity against the West Bank as they do with Gaza, yet mysteriously they don’t.

Although “taking steps to eradicate the entire population” is a literal admission of genocide in a sentence denying genocide, which is a neat trick…

Who said this in any authority to carry it out?

“But, Hamas!”

You mean the organisation on a par with ISIS which initiated this barbaric slaughter? Yeah them, they’re ultimately responsible.

No, the people doing the genociding are responsible for their own genocidal actions. We don’t apply the logic of the wife-beater to IHL.

Lol, wife beater analogies are so apt for this conflict with Hamas taking the role of the beaten wife? Pathetic.

Israel isn’t doing any genociding, I refute your opinion in its entirety.

Yes, I’m sure the head-shot five-year olds were real Right of Return idealogues :roll_eyes:

Just like all those babies beheaded were settlers right?

You need to stop grafting your ANC Apartheid era experience onto conflicts where it doesn’t apply, this is one of them.

3727

Since wannabe-Israelis started pogroming Palestine villages… so, before partition in 1948.

That’s one. How many of those killed were like Silver?

“Withdrew” but still controlled all access and movement.

Israeli irredentism, of course, is entirely problem-free. /s

“Same intensity” was literally quoting you.

Naah, the West Bank is where they’re currently settling, don’t want to salt their own new farms…

Although I’ve already cited where it’s hardly like the West Bank is some garden of roses with regards to bombings and Israeli boots-on-the-ground. So give it time…

Didn’t say you did. Just pointing out the cognitive dissonance there.

“But, Hamas!”

Naah. That’s not how responsibility works.

Hamas doesn’t press the child-murdering sniper’s finger on the trigger.

Palestinians =/= Hamas.

Yes, they are.

Nevertheless, they genocide.

Naah. Because settlers aren’t fictional.

What an absolute non sequitur.

Where have I referenced ANC anything when calling this a genocide? I’m talking about the things that are actually happening in Gaza, like murdered grannies and kids, people herded into killzone tentcamps to starve and die of disease (when not just blown up), and smarmy self-implicating IDF genocidaires. Absolutely nothing to do with SA’s history.

Not that I was in the ANC, mind you. My apartheid-era experience was with other organizations.

3728

Hey moderators, are you ever going to stop people in this thread from repeating this lie?

3729

Speaking as a moderator, we don’t generally moderate for factual accuracy. That’s the job of posters.

If someone is becoming disruptive by saying the same thing over and over, or misrepresents quotes, we are more likely to get involved. Report instances like that, though.

3731

Since wannabe-Israelis started pogroming Palestine villages… so, before partition in 1948.

You mean like when the Palestinians did this?Jaffa riots

That’s one. How many of those killed were like Silver?

I dunno, I guess the people roasted alive by Hamas didn’t get the chance to be like her

“Withdrew” but still controlled all access and movement.

Because Hamas kept lobbing rockets on a consistent basis into Israel proper.

Israeli irredentism, of course, is entirely problem-free. /s

What a nice strawman, still doesn’t solve the Palestinian equivalent.

Same intensity” was literally quoting you.

Yeah misquoting me to explain how Israel is not comitting genocide because if it was you wouldn’t see the West Bank spared the ferocity of violence meted out to Gaza.

Naah, the West Bank is where they’re currently settling, don’t want to salt their own new farms…

Ah so it’s not genocide then

Although I’ve already cited where it’s hardly like the West Bank is some garden of roses with regards to bombings and Israeli boots-on-the-ground. So give it time…

So was Northern Ireland, doesn’t mean it was a genocide.

Didn’t say you did. Just pointing out the cognitive dissonance there.

I wasn’t talking about me I was asking which Israeli government official with substantial authority has explicitly called for the genocide of Palestine?

“But, Hamas!”

When bombing Germany

“But, The Nazis!”

Naah. That’s not how responsibility works.
Hamas doesn’t press the child-murdering sniper’s finger on the trigger.

No it just went around Sderot and sets it on fire and then goes on to murder entire scores of civilians, is that how responsibility works in your world?

Palestinians =/= Hamas.

Lots of Palestinians support Hamas

Yes, they are.

No they’re not

Nevertheless, they genocide.

No they don’t, because its not a genocide.

Naah. Because settlers aren’t fictional.

Those settlers didn’t deserve to die

What an absolute non sequitur.
Where have I referenced ANC anything when calling this a genocide?

You’re of the same mindset as the current SA government saying this is a genocide when it isn’t. Its not surprising for you to have this world view in the context of the ANC being aligned with the Palestinian cause.

I’m talking about the things that are actually happening in Gaza, like murdered grannies and kids, people herded into killzone tentcamps to starve and die of disease (when not just blown up), and smarmy self-implicating IDF genocidaires.

You mean like the murdered grannies and kids that Hamas slaughtered in October? The ultimate responsibility for this disaster is Hamas, Israel having to invade and do a root and branch gutting of the entire Hamas infrastructure interwoven purposely with the local population is on them, none of which consyltitutes a genocide and dilutes the terminology snd cheapen it when an actual genocide does occur.

Absolutely nothing to do with SA’s history
Not that I was in the ANC, mind you. My apartheid-era experience was with other organizations.

I just feel you’re more comfortable with a narrative which had you on the side which uses language such as Apartheid and Genocide without actually stopping for moment snd thinking, maybe these guys aren’t exactly innocent themselves, with Oct 7th basically a benchmark of what any Israeli can except from a Palestinian victory, if that ever happens.

3732

I love how it’s “the Palestinians” who did it when it started with Jews fighting Jews and ended with Jews killing Arabs.

Naah, now they’re just like the many, many Palestinians who’ve been white phosphorous-ed over the years.

Hey, this “you did it too” game is sure … something.

Oh no, they attacked their occupiers, how terrible…

Israel first…

I literally quoted your exact words.

You think replacing people on their own land isn’t covered by genocide?

What the hell? So was South Africa, so was … I don’t know, Grenada? Not every war or occupation is a genocide, yes, this is not in dispute.

Just the ones where the side doing the majority of the slaughter has members of its government literally saying that they’re not going to stop until they kill or drive off everyone on the other side. Which Israel has done.

I was.

Why would I bother answering such a loaded, weasel-worded question? Especially when plenty of quotes have already been provided right here in this thread.

Exactly.

Dresden would be a war crime today.

Where’ve I said Hamas isn’t responsible for October 7?

What comes after, though, months later, and involving innocent civilians who had nothing to do with Oct 7, is entirely on Israel.

Lots don’t.

And a 5 yo could be dancing down the street waving a Hamas flag and chanting “From the River to the Sea”, whatever IDF murderer shoots him would still be an evil son-of-a-bitch coward.

Yes, they are.

Yes, it is.

Because it is. If the current SA government says the sea is salty, I’m not going to argue with them, because I too can tell it is.

Same-same with Israel’s genocide.

I’m not an ANC supporter.

But I am for human rights. Such a the right not to be a victim of genocide.

Yes.

What, you think I don’t consider them victims, too?

“But, Hamas!”

You’re projecting worse than Cape Hatteras…

Never said they were. In fact, I’ve literally called them “heartless murderers”.

Not everyone thinks in terms of a Good vs Evil narrative. The current Israel-Palestine one is Evil vs Evil (with lots of innocents in between)

3733

Except it was Arabs butchering Jews

Naah, now they’re just like the many, many Palestinians who’ve been white phosphorous-ed over the years.
Hey, this “you did it too” game is sure … something.

You know what I’m sure of? Even if Israel withdrew to the '67 borders, the Palestinians would still attack Israel and there still wouldn’t be peace, you seem to be blind to the uncomfortable truth that maybe they don’t want to make agreement with Israel.

Oh no, they attacked their occupiers, how terrible…

Yeah considering they withdrew in 2005

Israel first…

No thanks

You think replacing people on their own land isn’t covered by genocide?

They’re not replacing them in Gaza or the West Bank

What the hell? So was South Africa, so was … I don’t know, Grenada? Not every war or occupation is a genocide, yes, this is not in dispute.

Great, so it’s bizarre how you can’t apply this to Israel.

Just the ones where the side doing the majority of the slaughter has members of its government literally saying that they’re not going to stop until they kill or drive off everyone on the other side.

Which Israel has done.

No it hasn’t the 1948 partition plan which Israel agreed to gave Palestinians more territory than it has now, however, they decided to by and large uproot themselves from what is now Israel proper, on the arrogant expectation that the subsequent attacks by the surrounding Arab states would kick the Jewish people out, which didn’t happen.

Why would I bother answering such a loaded, weasel-worded question? Especially when plenty of quotes have already been provided right here in this thread.

Because you’re the one bringing it up?

Exactly.

Are you for real?

Dresden would be a war crime today.

Doesn’t make the allied side comparable to the Nazis or the fact the raison detre for that bombing in the first place was the wholesale destruction of Europe.

Where’ve I said Hamas isn’t responsible for October 7?

The entire tone of your replies in this thread is to minimise their barbarism and complain about the audacity of Israel to respond to such an attack.

What comes after, though, months later, and involving innocent civilians who had nothing to do with Oct 7, is entirely on Israel.

Innocents are going to be in the crossfire of a heavily urbanised area where a terrorist organisation has deliberately hidden themselves, what do you expect to happen?

You’re projecting worse than Cape Hatteras…

What am I projecting exactly?

Never said they were. In fact, I’ve literally called them “heartless murderers”.

But not genocides, that’s reserved for Israel

Not everyone thinks in terms of a Good vs Evil narrative. The current Israel-Palestine one is Evil vs Evil (with lots of innocents in between)

Neither do I, on the balance of probabilities of who’s more likely to want peace between the two, I’m going to go with the country who’s people have suffered multiple genocide attempts and one industrially organised genocide, as opposed to the other faction who’s government is barely different from Isis and who’s people had the arrogant presumption that they could reclaim the whole of Palestine as it was by butchering all the Jewish ppl who are in the way.

3734

What do you think expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank is, then? ISTM absolutely undeniable that a huge chunk of Israeli society, including the current Israeli government, is unequivocally in favor of extending and maintaining Israeli control over substantial (and growing) parts of West Bank and Gaza territories. That’s replacement, by any reasonable interpretation of the term.

Fleeing your home because you’re afraid of getting caught in a war, or being driven out by armed settlers, is not the same thing as “deciding to uproot yourself” in the sense of voluntarily choosing to emigrate. Palestinians didn’t relinquish their claims to their ancestral homes because they fled them in the Nakba.

That’s a very naive take on the situation, AFAICT. Just because a particular people have been victims of oppression and exploitation doesn’t make them intrinsically incapable of oppressing and exploiting others. An Israeli government that genuinely wanted peace and coexistence, with equal rights and sovereignty for Palestinians and Israelis, would not be persistently expanding Israeli settlements in Palestinian territories, for example.

As I’ve repeatedly said, I have no sympathy with Hamas terror attacks on civilians. But we’re not going to get anywhere with an honest assessment of this situation if we persist in assuming that Israel’s motivations are necessarily, axiomatically legitimate and justifiable, and the Palestinians’ motivations are necessarily, axiomatically evil and destructive.

For example, it is not evil or destructive for Palestinians to want, and even to fight for, basic rights and sovereignty in their own ancestral homeland. And it is not legitimate or justifiable for Israel to claim, much less to try to implement, permanent control over all Palestinian territory.

There are a lot of other complicating issues in the situation, of course, including illegitimate Hamas terror attacks and legitimate Israeli fears of such attacks. But the simplistic binary of “Israel’s actions are right and Palestinians’ actions are wrong” is not a realistic depiction of the situation.

3735

…I’ll cite the South African submission to the International Court of Justice, from page 59 to page 69, section D, titled “Expressions of Genocidal Intent against the Palestinian People by Israeli State Officials and Others”.

Proving intent has always been the hardest part of proving a genocide is taking place. In this case? They just tweeted it out.

Which doesn’t make them a legitimate target.

From a few days ago: Dana Yaghy from the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, was killed during the IDF bombing campaign.

Along with forty members of her family.

Entire generations of families have been wiped out during the war. From Time in October, “47 families—consisting of over 500 civilians—were wiped from the civil registry.”

The article was from October the 31st. There are so many more families that have been completely wiped out since then.

There are 2.2 million people in Gaza.

1.9 million of them have been forced from their homes. Most won’t have a home to return too: either it was destroyed during the bombing campaign, blown up by controlled explosives, knocked over by bulldozers, or burnt to the ground by IDF soldiers.

1.5 million of those people have been forced from the north, forced from central Gaza, right up to the border, most forced to live in tent cities in and around Rafah.

And Israel have declared that they are holding off their attack on Rafah until March, so that it coincides with Ramadan.

Gaza doesn’t have a healthcare system any more. 24 out of 36 hospitals have been shut down. Many of those hospitals that were shut down have now been completely destroyed. The remaining hospitals are on life support: barely able to offer any services at all with medical equipment and supplies not coming in through the border due to the siege, and everywhere is working significantly over capacity.

In the north of Gaza they are experiencing famine. Many children have already died from starvation. Some are boiling grass and leaves to eat, having used up the supply of animal feed. Aid convoys to the north were suspended a few weeks ago because the IDF fired on a convoy, and when they attempted to restart convoys a few days ago they immediately had to suspend them again because the security situation had deteriorated to the point where it is no longer safe.

No food can get to the north of Gaza. Fields have been razed. This is a death sentence.

And for the rest of Gaza, the siege is taking its toll. Starvation, disease, infection. Israel is only allowing a tiny fraction of the aid needed into Gaza. Israel have allowed protests to continue that have blocked one of the border crossings. Even if the siege were lifted today, humanitarian experts believe that thousands of people would still die of preventable causes. And if the siege isn’t lifted? Excess deaths will be in the hundreds of thousands.

South Africa took a case to the International Court of Justice, “alleging that Israel is responsible for violations of the Genocide Convention”, the submission I’ve linked to earlier in this post. The court, by majority vote, said:

So when you argue that this isn’t a genocide: I’d like you to explain to us how the things I’ve described are not genocidal. We call the Bosnian genocide a genocide, yet the numbers in that genocide are a mere fraction of what we are observing in Gaza.

So make your case.