Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023

[Broomstick]

@Babale

And I would argue that when Israelis see repeated terrorist and rocket attacks, with not a soul on the Palestinian side arguing against this

Part of the problem with seeking pro-peace Palestinians in Gaza is that Hamas has a history of targeting those who don’t support them 100% and literally throwing them off the roof of a high building. It’s not an environment where people are inclined to speak up. There were also pro-peace end-the-conflict demonstrations in Gaza near the border that involved tens of thousands of Palestinians who were seeking an alternative to fighting… until Hamas showed up and started attacking the Israeli guards across the border and firefights ensued. I would like to look up a link to it but of course right now all I get from a google search is what’s happening in 2023. It was before covid, so… 2017? 2018? Pretty sure you in Israel either didn’t hear about that demonstration, or only heard one side of the situation.

Hamas does not want peace. They will do anything and everything to disrupt a chance of it breaking out. Including torturing and killing their own. Including starting fights that result in thousands of people on their side dead and no deaths on the other.

So there’s your Palestinians you could work with… if the extremists running Gaza would allow it. But they don’t. They’ll kill their own rather than let anyone attempt peace because peace means Hamas loses their power and influence.

@Babale

But there is a reason why Netanyahu’s position (which is not equivalent to Ben Gvir’s position, incidentally, although both are odious) is popular, and that has to do with the behavior of the Palestinian authorities in the past.

I do understand why a nation that essentially has lived under siege for 80 years, with rocket attacks and suicide bombers in the mix, would have a percentage of the population with those viewpoints.

I am skeptical of polls. So much depends on the exact wording of the question, as well as whether or not the person being asked truly feels free to express their actual opinion.

@DeadTreasSecretaries

Probably a topic for another thread, but as time goes on, Israeli settlements make a two-state solution legalistically more and more impractical, even ignoring how difficult it would be to get all parties to agree on anything.

Which is why such settlements on lands that were designated for the Palestinians should have never been allowed to happen, and removed if they did occur. But for decades the Israeli government has only winked at the situation and allowed it to continue.

The Cartoon Villain side of me thinks that the only solution is to evict BOTH sides from the entire territory, the “if you can’t share your possessions with your siblings none of you get to own it” approach, but that’s strictly a fantasy borne out of frustration and not a real desire. Nor would it be fair or just to those who haven’t done any wrong and are just trying to exist in peace.

@Al128

they were the elected government from 2007 to 2011 for a 4 year term. Since then they are NOT and run an autocratic dictatorship.

I often read phrases that make it sound like the Hamas is the legitimate government of gaza … they are NOT.

This needs to be very clear

Sorry - you’re wrong. Despite not stepping down after their initial 4 year term Hamas is very much whatever government Gaza has. Theocratic dictatorships are a legitimate form of government even if we find them distasteful. Even if you argue that Hamas is not legally the government they are certainly the de facto government in charge.

@carnivorousplant

I thought the Palestinian Authority was the government, not that they’ve allowed elections for about twenty years.

The PA is nominally in charge of the West Bank. Hamas forced out, and outright killed anyone who didn’t leave fast enough, anyone who wasn’t Hamas by around 2008. The PA is controlled by Fatah, a faction that has little to no love for Hamas given how many of them were killed by Hamas back when Hamas was consolidating their power. Both territories are Palestinian but they’re controlled by different groups.

(I wouldn’t call either group “moderate”, by the way. I just note that are two separate organizations.)

[Al128]

@Broomstick

Part of the problem with seeking pro-peace Palestinians in Gaza is that Hamas has a history of targeting those who don’t support them 100% and literally throwing them off the roof of a high building

the cynic in me likes to point out that there are quite a lot of those high buildings gone now - compared to, say, a month ago…

@Broomstick

@Al128

they were the elected government from 2007 to 2011 for a 4 year term. Since then they are NOT and run an autocratic dictatorship.

I often read phrases that make it sound like the Hamas is the legitimate government of gaza … they are NOT.

This needs to be very clear

Sorry - you’re wrong. Despite not stepping down after their initial 4 year term Hamas is very much whatever government Gaza has. Theocratic dictatorships are a legitimate form of government even if we find them distasteful. Even if you argue that Hamas is not legally the government they are certainly the de facto government in charge.

you missed my point … which was that they are not a legitimate government (let me put the relevant word in bold, for a second time).

[Thing.Fish]

I’m sure they’ll be very hurt by your declaration of their illegitimacy. How, exactly, should anyone else be expected to treat them any differently than if you had deemed them “legitimate?”. Conversely, if they had been elected in a free election by a landslide last month, would that make their actions any more acceptable?

[Babale]

@Broomstick

Hamas does not want peace. They will do anything and everything to disrupt a chance of it breaking out. Including torturing and killing their own. Including starting fights that result in thousands of people on their side dead and no deaths on the other.

So there’s your Palestinians you could work with… if the extremists running Gaza would allow it. But they don’t. They’ll kill their own rather than let anyone attempt peace because peace means Hamas loses their power and influence.

I agree with all of this. That is why Hamas must be removed by force.

[Broomstick]

I agree that Hamas needs to be removed. However, I very much disagree with how the government of Israel and the IDF are going about it. I think that their current methods are resulting in too much collateral damage.

Admittedly I’m a civilian with no particular expertise sitting halfway around the world from the conflict so my opinion does not count for a great deal in the larger scheme of things. I have no doubt many would disagree with me, both here and in Israel.

[Thing.Fish]

I can say for sure that I think Israel should turn the water back on and allow food and medicine to enter Gaza. Their current policy is collective punishment and unacceptable.

As far as the bombing and possible ground invasion…it breaks my heart to see the devastation and the deaths of innocent people. But other than military action, I don’t see how Hamas’ hold on Gaza can be broken. And although I’m no starry-eyed believer in the complete integrity of the IDF, I don’t feel like I’m in a position to second-guess their judgment of how to go about that military action.

[Sam_Stone]

Elections aren’t the only way to degermine the popularity of Hamas.

For example, in 2021 a poll of Palestinians found that three quarters of them thought the recent Gaza war was a success, despite 20 times the casualties on the Palestinian side.

And after that failed attack, support for Hamas went UP.

The poll found that 53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people,” while only 14% prefer Abbas’ secular Fatah party.

Poll finds dramatic rise in Palestinian support for Hamas

If Hamas ran a clean election tomorrow, they would almost certainly win. It’s hard for us in the west to understand this, just as it’s hard to understand how Putin’s popularity would go up after the debacle in Ukraine.

The fact is, support for Hamas starts to drop after a conflict as Palestinians realize how badly they suck at governing. Then Hamas launches an attack against Israeli civilians and their popularity goes up in Gaza. That’s the reality - attacking Israelis is a popularity booster for Hamas.

[carnivorousplant]

Have you gentle readers seen this article? One of the terrorists called mommy and daddy to tell them what a good boy he was, killing ten Jews. Daddy seems to be quite proud.
I can understand that some Israelis have no guilt about people in Gaza being killed to end this terrorist stuff.

[Broomstick]

I can understand the anger but that doesn’t mean I condone the methods.

[Dinsdale]

I’m curious - how exactly will Hamas “be removed”? Serious question. Is there a certain number of folk who can be killed/imprisoned at which point no Palestinians will sympathize with their anti-Irsael views?

This question is in no way critical of Israel. Instead, commenting on what seems like the impossibility of resolving this situation.

[tofor]

@Thing.Fish

I can say for sure that I think Israel should turn the water back on and allow food and medicine to enter Gaza. Their current policy is collective punishment and unacceptable.

Water was restored 10 days ago:

Israeli official confirms that Israel has resumed water supply to Gaza

Hamas denies it:

October 16: Israel-Hamas war

But as we’ve established, Hamas isn’t a reliable source of information.

[Walken_After_Midnight]

This article offers some clues:

That the worst is to come is not supposition, but evident from the public pronouncements of Israel’s political leaders. They have made no effort to disguise their intentions, and thus they have left their cheerleaders with nowhere to hide, no ignorance to plead. “The emphasis is on damage, not accuracy,” declared the Israel Defence Forces (IDF). “Gaza will eventually turn into a city of tents,” said one IDF official, adding, “There will be no buildings.” Israel’s economy minister, Nir Barkat, told ABC News that hostages and civilian casualties will be secondary to destroying Hamas, “even if takes a year”.

One prominent supporter of Keir Starmer on Labour’s national executive committee claimed that Israel was not in breach of international law on the grounds that its actions were “proportionate”, and that the “command structure involves sign-off by lawyers to ensure conformity with intl law for all IDF actions”. So let’s hear from one such lawyer, Israel’s former chief military advocate general and the country’s former attorney general no less, who declared that to destroy Hamas “then you have to destroy Gaza, because everything in Gaza, almost every building there, is a stronghold of Hamas”.

Israel is clear about its intentions in Gaza – world leaders cannot plead...

[Walken_After_Midnight]

@tofor

Water was restored 10 days ago:

The devil is in the details.

Israel has since allowed some water to flow through one of the three pipelines that run into Gaza, but experts say it covers only a tiny percentage of the enclave’s needs. Most of Gaza’s water comes from local sources – but the fuel required to pump and clean it is fast running out.

As the water system collapses, some Gazans have been forced to drink dirty, salty water, sparking concerns of a health crisis and fears that people could start dying from dehydration.

Water production in Gaza is currently at 5% of normal levels, according to a UNICEF report from October 17, citing the Palestinian Water Authority (PWA).

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/24/middleeast/gaza-water-war-climate-intl-cmd/index.html

“No fuel means no functioning hospitals, no desalination of water and no baking,” she said. Pointing out that people are drinking saline groundwater, increasing the risk of cholera and other health issues, she called on Israel to bring water and electricity supplies back to pre-conflict levels and work with her teams to find a secure way of bringing fuel into Gaza.

Amid Increasingly Dire Humanitarian Situation in Gaza, Secretary-General...

The 40,000 litres of drinking water trucked into Gaza on Saturday represent ‘a drop in the ocean’, considering the immense needs following two weeks of conflict.

That’s the assessment of Jeremy Hopkins, Representative of the UN Children’s Fund (UNICEF) in Egypt, speaking hours after a humanitarian convoy crossed the border with lifesaving supplies – the first since the crisis erupted on 7 October.

Water aid for Gaza literally ‘a drop in the ocean’: UNICEF

[tofor]

@Walken_After_Midnight

The devil is in the details.

If the problem is electricity, then perhaps “I can say for sure that I think Israel should turn the X back on” should have ‘electricity’ in place of the X rather than ‘water’.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@tofor

If the problem is electricity, then perhaps “I can say for sure that I think Israel should turn the X back on” should have ‘electricity’ in place of the X rather than ‘water’.

This is semantics. “Turning the water back on” is idiomatic, as water is a liquid without an on/off switch. When someone says “turning the water back on,” they mean, “Take the actions that result in clean, potable water flowing through pipes.” There’s no percentage in fussing over which specific actions have that result.

[Dinsdale]

I’m not readily thinking of a historical precedent where inflicting civilian casualties - short of near extermination - successfully eliminated extremist opposition. Again, not a criticism of Israel. Just trying to figure out what they are actually trying to accomplish.

[What_Exit]

They are trying to root out most of the Hamas assets.
There are underground tunnels and bunkers. There are supplies, especially missiles and munitions to be found and destroyed. There is also trying to turn the Gaza residents against Hamas, but in this part they are likely to fail sadly.

[DeadTreasSecretaries]

They are 100% going to create more terrorist supporters than they kill. And I think they realize this. I think the parallels to the US after 9/11 are apt. Government officials who clearly know better are trying to delude the public and/or themselves into thinking they can just magically avoid the inevitable quagmire after an intervention on this scale with this level of destruction.

[Babale]

@Dinsdale

I’m curious - how exactly will Hamas “be removed”? Serious question. Is there a certain number of folk who can be killed/imprisoned at which point no Palestinians will sympathize with their anti-Irsael views?

Of course not. How would that even work?

Nature and politics abhor vacuums. If Israel smashes up Gaza for a while and leaves, Hamas will return. If Israel ensures that something else replaces Hamas, then that’s how Hamas is destroyed.

[Babale]

@Walken_After_Midnight

The devil is in the details.

Israel has since allowed some water to flow through one of the three pipelines that run into Gaza, but experts say it covers only a tiny percentage of the enclave’s needs. Most of Gaza’s water comes from local sources – but the fuel required to pump and clean it is fast running out.

As the water system collapses, some Gazans have been forced to drink dirty, salty water, sparking concerns of a health crisis and fears that people could start dying from dehydration.

Water production in Gaza is currently at 5% of normal levels, according to a UNICEF report from October 17, citing the Palestinian Water Authority (PWA).

Correct, the devil IS in the details. Namely, there’s lots of fuel in Gaza, Hamas just isn’t allowing it to be used by civilians.

Israel's military tells UN in Gaza: ask Hamas for fuel

That’s why Israel refuses to send fuel in. It won’t go to hospitals, it would go to top off Hamas’s tanks.